WHO IS JESUS CHRIST?
By: Dr. Gordon Magee
“Jesus Christ is the Surpreme Deity”
Affirmed by Gordon Magee — Denied by W. L. Toddy, Church of Christ
Gordon Magee’s First Affirmative
Honorable opponent, moderators, ladies and gentlemen. The proposition which I have the honor and privilege to defend is that Jesus is the Supreme Deity. Naturally I wouldn’t be here attempting to defend such a proposition if I did not believe it with all my heart. As far as I am concerned the Bible certainly teaches that Jesus Christ is the Supreme, Deity. By Jesus of course, we mean Jesus of Nazareth. And by Supreme, we mean He is above all others, that He is the only true God.
Now Mr. Toddy is taking the negative position and he is denying that Jesus is the Supreme Deity. I am so thankful that I am not in his shoes. I cannot think of any more serious thing for a man to do than to deny the Supreme Deity of The Lord Jesus Christ.
So my opponent denies Christ’s Deity. Now I am urging you people to tell it far and wide that the so-called Church of Christ makes no bones about it, they deny the Deity of Jesus. Of course, they answer, “We do not deny His Deity.” They answer, “We deny only His supreme, Deity” And so we will hear a quibble of that sort put before us. They say they do not deny Christ’s Deity. They deny only His supreme Deity. Pray tell me is a relative Deity a possibility? Is it
possible to be partly God or God to a certain extent? I say if Jesus is not God over all then He is not God at all. And that goes for anybody called God. If they are not God over all, I repeat, then they are not God at all.
So it would not do to say that the Church of Christ, so-called Church of Christ does not deny the Deity of Christ, that they merely deny the “Supreme Deity” of Christ.
I have been thinking that if Jesus is not the Supreme Deity, and if the Father, according to Mr. Toddy, is equal with Jesus and if the Holy Spirit is also the co-equal of Jesus, then neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit could be the Supreme Deity. I ask Mr. Toddy, is who is your Supreme Deity if Jesus is not? He dare not point me to the Father and say “There you see the Supreme Deity,” because he tells me in the second proposition he is convinced that the Father is co-equal with Jesus. So he dare not point to the Father and say, “There is my Supreme Deity.” If Jesus is not the Supreme Deity and the Father is the co-equal of Jesus then neither is the Father Supreme Deity. And the same goes for the Holy Spirit. If Mr. Toddy points to the Holy Spirit and says, “The Holy Spirit is Supreme Deity,” then we are obliged to draw his attention to the fact that he believes according to proposition number two that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are co-equal. If Jesus is not Supreme Deity then neither is the Holy Spirit. So Mr. Toddy is in the unenviable and the curious position of having no Supreme Deity at all!
Each person in his heavenly committee, according to him, is one-third of God only. There is no person in the universe hear it – no person in the universe, no divine person in the universe to whom he can point and say, “There is Supreme Deity.”
I have had this same debate with a Roman Catholic priest of Jesuit order. The proposition was, “Jesus is the Supreme Deity.” I affirmed, as I hope I’LL always do. The Roman Catholic priest denied that Jesus was the Supreme Deity because as you know, Rome, the Church of Rome happens to be the classical and the traditional trinitarians. They have been trinitarians since the year 325 A.D. at least. And so it
makes no difference whether I am debating with the so-called Church of Christ representative or whether I am debating with a round- collared priest af Rome. They will both speak with the same voice.
So I can say, paraphrasing their well-known, slogan, that in this matter whether or not Jesus is Supreme Deity; the Church of Christ speaks where the Church of Rome speaks, and the Church of Christ so-called is silent where the Church of Rome is silent. There is no difference whatsoever in their respective positions in connection with this matter of the Supreme Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
But watch it, Mr. Toddy will say some nice things about Jesus. Mr. Toddy will praise Jesus. But if you listen carefully you will discover that while he praises Jesus, and as he praises Jesus he plunders Him. To deny Jesus’ Supreme Deity is to deny His Deity. Get that clear. To deny His Supreme Deity is to deny His Deity because a Deity who is not supreme is no Deity at all.
Now Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew word “Jehoshua” which means Jehovah our Savior. And so our proposition could read like this, “The Supreme Deity of Jehovah our Savior.” Get that clear. When we stand for the Supreme Deity of Jesus we are standing for the Supreme Deity of Jehovah – Savior because that is the meaning of His name.
Now then, is Jesus the name of the Son only? We say no. Jesus is not the name of the Son only because in Hebrews chapter one and in verse four we are told that Jesus (or the Son) received His name by inheritance. Hebrews 1:4. “Being made so much better than the angels as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name, than they.”
Now any son inherits his name from his father. My name is Magee simply because my dad’s name is Magee. So we are told the son inherits his name, in other words, he gets it from his a father. In John 17:6 the Son is speaking and he says to the Father, “I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world.” I have manifested thy name said the Son to the Father, unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world. In the eleventh verse of John 17, in the Revised Version, Jesus the Son speaks of “Thy Name”, addressing the Father, “Thy Name which Thou hast given me,” and that is repeated in the 12th verse. “Thy Name,” says the Son, “which Thou (the Father) hast given me.”
In John 5:43 Jesus said, “I am come in my Father’s name.” Thus the name of Jesus is the name of the Father and the Son. As Proverbs 30:4 says “What is his name; what is his Son’s name if thou canst tell.” Because to know the name of the Son is to know the name of the Father and to know the name of the Father is to know the name of the Son. So Jesus is not only the name of the Son; Jesus is also the name of the Father.
Jesus is also the name of the Holy Spirit. John 14:26, “The Holy Ghost whom the Father will send (says the Son) in my name.” In Acts 16:7 in the Revised Version or a good margin, you will read of the Spirit of Jesus. In Philippians 1:19 you will read plainly in the King James version of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus is the name of the Father, Jesus is the name of the Son and Jesus is the name of the Holy Ghost. That’s one thing which we would like to stress. When we contend for the Supreme Deity of Jesus, we contend for Jesus, a name which is common to the Father, the Son and The Holy Ghost, according to the Word of God.
But let’s take this matter a step farther. Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God, not only bore the name of the Father but the Bible teaches Hewas the Father. Isaiah 9:6, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given and his name (the name of the child; the name of the Son) shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, (don’t forget the article — THE Mighty God) here it comes, THE Everlasting Father.” Or as the Hebrew says, “The Father of Eternity.” Thus in language clear, beyond misunderstanding and ambiguity the Bible declares that that person who was a child, that person who was the Son, also the Mighty God and the Father of Eternity.
This great truth is repeated in John 14:9. Philip wanted to see the Father. Jesus gently reproved him and said, “Have I been so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?” Hear it! “He that hath seen me (says the Son) hath seen the Father.” What could be clearer? What could be plainer? John 10:30, in the Revised Version, Jesus the Son says “I and my Father are one.” Not two but one. Of course, no doubt we will be treated to a quibble that Jesus and the Father are one as a husband and wife are one. I warn my opponent against such, against using such for this reason: The Jesus who said I and my Father are one, made clear this ineffable, wonderful truth that if anyone saw Him they saw the Father. He says “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” Would my dear friend, Mr. Toddy be prepared to stand before this congregation and say, “He that hath seen me hath seen my wife.” It won’t work. When Jesus said, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father,” He meant what He said and He said what He meant. When Jesus said I and the Father are one, He meant this to be certainly an indivisible oneness.
In the Second Epistle of John, verse nine, I read, “He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son.” In Colossians 2:9 “In Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fullness of the godhead bodily.” Colossians 1:19 puts it, “It pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.” All! Paraphrasing it, “It was pleasant for the Father to indwell him in full.”
The great key to an understanding of Jesus is this: He is the Father and the Bible plainly says so, He is also the Son, as it equally clearly teaches. When we say He is the Father we mean He is God. When we say He is the Son we mean He is man. He is the Father as to his Deity and He is the Son as to His humanity. When He is portrayed as the Father the thought of absolute Deity is involved. When He is portrayed as the Son the thought of absolute humanity is involved. I warn you. There is no other way to make Jesus God other than to make Him the Father because as the Bible plainly declares, to us there is one God, the Father. I Corinthians 8:6. Ephesians 4:6. To us there is one God the Father, one God and Father of all. Deny the Fatherhood of Jesus and you have denied His Deity. He is God because He is the Father.
And so we say Jesus of Nazareth who is called the son of God not only bore the name of the Father — He was the Father! That’s why Jesus of Nazareth who was called the Son of God, is the person with the Holy
Ghost. Listen to this. Ephesians 4:4 tells us plainly “There is one spirit,” not two or more, but there is one Spirit. I Corinthians 8:6 says there is one Lord, Jesus Christ. One Lord Jesus Christ, not two Lords, one Lord. So there is one Spirit and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 3:17 says “Now the Lord is that Spirit.” What could be clearer? What could be clearer? There is one Spirit, there is one Lord, Jesus Christ. Now the Lord is that Spirit. So Jesus of Nazareth is one being or one person with the Holy Ghost.
Again we remind you that in Acts 16:3, the Revised Version, the Holy Ghost is called the Spirit of Jesus. In Philippians 1:19 the Holy Ghost is called the Spirit of Jesus Christ. In John 20:22, watch it, “Jesus breathed upon his disciples and said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” Do we propose to make a difference of person between a man and his breath? He breathed on them and said receive ye the Holy Ghost.
John 14:18, Jesus looked on the apostles and he said, “I will leave you orphans (read your margin, that’s the word.) Jesus said to the apostles I will not leave you orphans. In other words was their father. He said I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. Here we have Jesus promising to come as the Holy Ghost in order to be a Father to his apostles. John 14:16 this truth is also beautifully brought out. John 14:16. Jesus says, “And I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter that he may abide with you forever.” Jesus was consoling the hearts of the Apostles. He says, “I pray the Father to give you another Comforter and the will ABIDE with you forever. Who is it that abides with
the Christian? Jesus of course, Matthew 28:20, Jesus says, “Lo I am with you always, even unto the end of the age.” So Jesus of Nazareth is one person with the Holy Ghost.
Now because Jesus is the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, because of that Jesus could say in Revelation 1:8, “I am the Almighty.” Not “We are the Almighty” but Jesus could say “I am the Almighty.” Reverently speaking, it seems like the Savior agrees with our proposition. My proposition tonight is Jesus is the Supreme Deity. Jesus said, “I am the Almighty.” I heard a preacher one time telling a congregation, the devil was Almighty, and when he saw the look of consternation on the peoples faces he said, “But the Lord is mightier than he.” I don’t need to point out to this intelligent audience that there is nobody mightier than the Almighty. And Jesus said, “I am (personal pronoun, singular number) Jesus said, I am the Almighty one.” Because the Bible reveals He is the Father, He is the Son and He is the Holy Ghost.
John 8:56 Jesus says, “Before Abraham was I AM.” I AM! If ever there was a title to denote Supreme Deity it’s that glorious title of the burning bush. Jesus said before Abraham was I AM. Paul, in Romans 9:5 declared that Christ came concerning the flesh He is over all. “Whom, concerning the flesh, Christ came who is over all, God blessed for ever.” I Corinthians 2:8 Jesus Christ is called the Lord of glory. Not a Lord of Glory, not one of two or three Lords of Glory, but THE Lord of Glory. The 24th Psalm, verses 7-10 , reveals that the Lord of Glory is Jehovah of Hosts , the Lord Sabboath. The Apostle didn’t hesitate to say Jesus is the Lord of Glory, the Lord Sabboath.
One day a young man came to Christ in the 17th chapter of the gospel according to Luke and the 19th verse and said, “Good Master.” Only the one God is good. No one in the universe in the absolute sense is good, said Jesus, but the one God. So He said to the young man, “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” So therefore, according to Jesus, only the one God is good. Nowif Jesus is not the one God, then the onus is upon Mr. Toddy to tell us in which sense He is not good. But if Mr. Toddy will look us in the white of the eye and say, “There is no sense in which Jesus is not good. In every sense Jesus is good.” If that is what he tells us then Jesus Christ is the one God, the Supreme Deity. James 5:4-7 The Apostle James gives to the Saviour the remarkable title Lord of Sabboath, meaning Jehovah of Hosts. Two hundred and eighty two times in the Old Testament this is Jehovah, the Supreme God’s title. The Apostle James, familiar with the Old Testament found, Jehovah is called the Lord of Sabboath or Jehovah of Hosts and doesn’t hesitate to give that title to our adorable Lord Jesus Christ.
It’s self-evident, to those who have read the Bible even only casually, that the principal message of the scripture is this, there is one God. Isaiah 44:6, God said, “I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no God.” And that’s repeated all down through the Old Testament and over into the New. Moses said to the Israelites, Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, 0 Israel, Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah.” When Jesus came, Mark 12:29, he was asked what is the first commandment, he simply repeated
the words of Moses. Jesus said the first commandment is, “Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one God.” All right. If the principal teaching of the Bible is that there’s one God, and if Jesus Christ is anywhere called God in the New Testament, then it follows He is the One God. Is Jesus Christ called God? Sure He is. John 20:28 Thomas said of Him, “My Lord and my God.” Titus 2:13, the Apostle says, “Looking for that blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ.” John 1:1, “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.” Verse 14 “And the word became flesh and dwelt among us. . .” Listen to this. Four questions and four answers, based on John 1:1,14. Who was in the beginning? The answer is the word. Where was the word? The answer is with God. Who was the word? The answer is God. The fourth question is, is Jesus the word? The answer is in the affirmative. Of course, no doubt we’ll hear the word was WITH God, if that makes any difference. Can we distinguish the words of a man from the man that spoke them and make two persons? Of course we cannot.
Ladies and gentlemen, that is the beginning of a tremendous scriptural case that can be made for the Supreme Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.He is the Supreme Deity because His name is the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost; because He is the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost; because conscious of who He was He didn’t hesitate to claim Almightiness and Supremacy, Eternality, Omnipotence, Omiscience and Omnipresence and every attribute that belongs to God, He did not hesitate to claim them exclusively.
Jesus the Supreme Deity. Have we stopped to think of the terrible result or the terrible possibilities that emanate from a denial of the Supreme Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ? In II Corinthians 5:19 I read, “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.” In other words, the death of Christ reconciles you and me to that Deity which was in Him. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. If Jesus was not the Father, if Jesus was not the Holy Ghost, then His death has not reconciled us to all of Deity. We are reconciled by the death of Christ only to that God who resided in Jesus. Deny He’s the Father. Deny He’s the Holy Ghost. And in effect you deny that His death has reconciled you to anything more than one member of the supposed Trinity.
In Hebrews 8:7-13 we read that the maker of the old convenant in the Old Testament is Jehovah. In the same passages we read that the same God who made the Old Covenant is the God who made the new. In
Hebrews 9:16-17 we are told that no covenant is of any effect while the testator liveth. In other words, if anybody is going to make a covenant or a testament they will have to die in order to bring the covenant into effect. Now undoubtedly the God of the Old Testament, Jehovah, made the Old covenant and He promises to make the new. Now here’s the point. If Jesus is not the Father, and if Jesus is not the Holy Ghost but He is only the Son, Divine Person number two, as some would have us to believe, then His death is not enough to bring in or ratify the new convenant. There will have to be three Calvarys — one for the Father, one for the Son and one for the Holy Ghost, according to what Mr. Toddy says, because a covenant is of no force at all while the testator liveth. Did the Father, Son and Holy Ghost make the old
covenant Then they will make the new. Then they will have to die in order to make it valid and in effect. Who did die? Jesus died! Did that bring the new covenant in? Of course it brought the new covenant in. Because in him dwelleth all the fullness of the godhead bodily. He’s fully God. He is the Supreme Deity.
Mr. Toddy’s First Denial
Mr. Moderators, ladies and gentlemen. I’m certainly glad to have the opportunity of coming to you to answer the things that my opponent said. He started out by making a speech to you people telling you what Toddy would say, and about half his time or a third of it was taken up telling you what I would say. He evidently is afraid that I am going to say something that will not exactly suit his doctrine. Of course, I am going to do that. But he should be affirming his proposition instead of worrying about what I am going to say.
Now I am going to take care of what he said. He started out by saying that he certainly was thankful that he wasn’t in my shoes. Well, as the old fellow says, that pleasure is mutual on both sides. I wouldn’t want to be in his either so he doesn’t have to be thanking me or anybody else about that. And then he went on to say that if there are three persons in the godhead that a person would just be a third God, that he would not be a whole Deity but He would be a third. Well, I have three brothers. In my Fathers family there were four of us boys and all of us had the name Toddy. Now I wonder if Mr. Magee thinks that I’m just a fourth Toddy. Is that the way you think of that, Mr. Magee? Do you think I’m just a fourth or just a half? What do you think? Now there are four of us and we’re all Toddys. Did I have to take part of my other brothers or are we all equal? Are we equal Toddys? Now you see how easy it is to answer those things that he brings up. They said that Toddy denies the Deity of Christ. Why that isn’t so. You know he started in pretty early telling what Toddy does and what Toddy doesn’t do. You just wait, Mr. Magee, and let them hear what Toddy does. Now I do not deny that Jesus Christ is the Deity. But I want to point out a few things in his proposition. Now many things in it, but we ought to point out some of them. You know they can’t even pray without having three. Did you hear Mr. Urshan when he prayed that God would give them a measure in a special way of the Holy Spirit. Now they just have to have more than one. They can’t get even a prayer without more than one. And then he would up by saying that he thanked the Father for all these things in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ. Now wouldn’t that be strange language if there is but one? If you were to hear a person talking like that on the street you would think there was something wrong with him, wouldn’t you? And yet, that’ s the only way they can do it. That’s the only way they have of expressing.
All right, he says his proposition says that Jesus is the Supreme Deity. Now he’s going to have to admit that he’s used the grammar in a pretty sloppy manner or he’s going to have to go back on his doctrine, one. You can’t use that superlative term correctly when there is only one. If Jesus is the Supreme Deity then I want to know who is the inferior Deity. Mr. Magee. If He’s the Supreme one there’s got to be another one. Had he thought of that when he wrote his proposition? You see that, don’t you? A person can’t be Supreme unless there’s somebody under him And he can’t say that people are under him or angels are under him because he’s talking about Deity. He’s talking about God. And he says that Jesus Christ is the Supreme God. If that’s so, who is the inferior, Mr. Magee. Don’t forget that now. Be sure to answer that. We want to know which one is the inferior. All of you know if you put a thing Supreme, you speak of it in superlative terms, then there must be somebody under it. We’re talking about Gods now. We’re talking about Deities. So we want him to tell us who is the inferior. Don’t forget that Mr. Magee. We want to hear it when you get back up here. We want to know who is the inferior one. Now you begin to see why he was afraid of what Toddy was going to say, because he’s got more Gods than one in his proposition and he can’t get out of it to save his soul from perdition. It’s there. And he’ll never be able to extricate himself from that blunder that he made when he wrote his proposition.
All right, he told you what the Greek “Jesus” is rendering in the Old Testament, but he made a mistake on it. The Greek New Testament “Jesus” is the old Hebrew “Joshua” Just like Joshua that led the children of Israel across the Red Sea, or across the Jordan. He is Jesus in the New Testament in the Old Testament it was Joshua. And so the point that he seemed to make on that wasn’t a point.
Now I am going to answer his scripture that he took up. Then I have some negative arguments that I want to make.
The first scripture he used was the first chapter of Hebrews. I was somewhat amazed that he went to that I am going to give you that verse now, or that passage of scripture. There Paul started out in the beginning of the Hebrew letter, “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son whom he hath appointed heir of all things; by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the power of His might, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.” (Somebody had a right hand and Jesus sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.) “Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to thee a Father, and thou shalt be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, “And let all the angels of God worship him.” Hear it now. “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever…” Now what did He call the Son? He called Him God. Who called Him God? The Father called Him God. You listen at the language. “But unto the Son he saith, (who said it? Why the Son didn’t say it himself. The Father said it) “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God is for ever and ever. . .” Why just listen at that a little. Why He said God spoke through His Son. He had made Him better than the angels. He hath appointed him heir of all things. He made all things by Him. Now wouldn’t that be strange language if there were only one there?
But then I’ll answer the rest of Hebrews while we’re on it. He went then to the eighth chapter of Hebrews and seemingly tried to make a point there. Well, I want to start with the first verse of the eighth chapter of Hebrews, and there the Apostle Paul said (or the Hebrew writer), “Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest (Jesus Christ the righteous) who is set on the right hand of the throne of the “Majesty on high.” Whose right hand did he sit down on, Mr. Magee? Can a man sit down on his own right hand? Doesn’t there have to be two for a person to sit down on his right hand? It doesn’t say that Jesus sat down on His own right hand. It said he sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty on high.
And then he talked about He had made a better covenant Yes, Paul said, “But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry,by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them he saith, Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the house of Judah”.
So he made that covenant through Jesus Christ.
Well, the next Hebrew quotation he made was in Hebrews the ninth chapter and the 16th and 17th verses. There when he said where a testament is of force there must also of necessity be the death of the testator, otherwise it is no force whatever while the testator liveth. And he said that Jesus brought in the New Testament, that’s right. But he also said that Jesus died. If Jesus is the God, if Jesus is the only God, if Jesus is the only being in the godhead then there were three days when there was no God. Because the Bible says Jesus died, it said He was dead and he said the covenant wouldn’t have been of any effect if He hadn’t died. Now ‘what about that three days? You’ll have to straighten that up when you get up here. So he’s got the world three days without any God. That’s what he got into on his Hebrew.
All right. Now then next we have his quotation from John. John was a dangerous book for those men. They ought to stay away from John. If there is anything in the Bible they shun, it certainly ought to be John.
Let’s start reading at the first chapter of John, and see that he says. “In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God” I just quoted from the eighth verse of the first chapter of Hebrews it says the Father called the Son God. Now here it says He is God. In the beginning was the Word — that’s Jesus — and the Word was with God. You can’t be with yourself, you’ve got to have somebody else. Suppose that a mother would say to her daughter, “Whom were you out with last night?” and she would say, “Nobody”. Why she could come back and say — he would, he’d say, “Yes, you were out with yourself.” Well that wouldn’t be good, would it? He wouldn’t talk like that in any other sense except religious. That’s the only sense in which he’d speak of that.
And John said, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God, and all things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made.”
And the fourteenth verse that he read says, “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. . .” I want you to notice the verb “Made.” And the Word was made flesh. . .” He he quoted from the American Standard Version which says, “And the Word became flesh.” But you’ve got to harmonize the two. How did the Word become flesh? God made it flesh. In the tenth chapter of Hebrews we hear the Hebrew writer when he said that Jesus said a body hast thou prepared me. Not a body did I prepare myself but a body has thou prepared me. Now come back to our quotation in the fourteenth verse of the first chapter of John and you hear when he said, “And the Word was made flesh.” Who made Him? Why God made Him flesh. The Father made Him flesh. “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. . .”
And to cap the climax, if he didn’t quote the sixteenth verse of the eighth chapter of John. And now let’s hear that. Let’s, on the screen let’s have the number two chart, will you? I just want to make a little statement about that. “I will pray the Father and He will give you another comforter.” Now let’s see this. Number two, please. “I will pray the Father and He will give you another comforter, even the spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive for it neither knows him nor sees Him.” So here it is. I want all of you to look at this now. That’s the quotation. John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father…” I is the first person singular. “I will pray the Father. . .” Father is the third person, object of the verb “pray.” “I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter. . .” Jesus Christ was the Comforter then, but the Father will give you another Comforter. The adjective “another” makes it impossible to be the one they had then. Jesus was the one they had then and so He said I’ll get the Lord, I’ll get the Father to give you another one. Now is there anybody in his house who can’t see that? I want him to analyze that sentence, We’ll give it to him. He’s got all the charts that I have. I gave him a copy of every one of them before we started. He has them. And we will flash them on the screen for him.
I want all of you to see that “I” — Jesus, first person, singular — “will pray” transitive verb — “Father” object of the verb pray — “and He” Father– “shall give you another Comforter.” What is the other Comforter? John 14:26, and when the Comforter is come which is the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost was the Comforter. And Jesus said I am going to pray the Father and He’ll give you another Comforter. I’m the Comforter now but the Father will give you another one.
So you see my friends, there are three right there in that verse that he introduced. All right. So now, I am going to give you some more scripture in John.
I want now number one chart. The chart number one and we’ll see what it has to say. There Jesus is talking about a witness and Jesus said, “And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone. . .” Don’t you see? “And yet if I judge. my judgment is true: for I am not along…” Mr. Magee do you know what n-o-t spells? It spells “not”. I know you know what it means. There the Son of God said, “I am not alone.” The only difference in what God spoke in the Garden of Eden and the devil was only a “not”. God said “in the day thou eatest there thou shalt surely die. Oh, the old devil came along and said in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt not surely die. The only difference in that verse, in the teaching of my worthy opponent and Jesus Christ is a “not.” Jesus said , “And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone.” Well, who’s with you then, Jesus? “But I and the Father that sent me.” Isn’t that two? If that isn’t two then I don’t know what two would be. “I am not alone.” I want that to raise the hairs of every individual in this audience. “I am not alone.” And then He made an argument and based it upon their law. He said, “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.” The testimony of how many men, Jesus? The testimony of two men is true. And then He said, “I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.” If Jesus Christ didn’t mean there were two men there then Jesus Christ made a false argument, based upon a fallacious premise. And we know Jesus Christ didn’t do that. That would have been gross deception for Him to have done that. He was talking to those Pharisees who denied Him. And He said if I judge my judgment is true for I am not alone. If also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true, I am one and my Father is two. I am one that bears witness of myself and the Father which sent me bears witness of me. Now don’t you see that, my friends? That’s just as easy as anything can be. That’s an argument there that Jesus Christ made that there are not enough Pentecostal preachers in this wide, wide world to break down. There He said there are two of us. My testimony has got to be true, you’ve got to acknowledge it’s true, because your law says the testimony of two men is true and I’m producing two that says I’m the Son of God. Now what is my opponent going to do with that? That’s one of the things that he thought I was going to say that I did say. So we have it there.
All right. I’m going to read a few other verses now before we pass on. He read from the ninth chapter of Isaiah. Well, I knew he would. And here’s what he said. The sixth verse, when Isaiah said, “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
And so he says, now there’s the everlasting Father. But the forgets that the father applies to many people. The Jews back there spoke of Abraham as their father. They spoke of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and if you hear a Jew today leading a prayer in one of their synagogues it’s not unusual to hear him say, “The God of our father, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Yes, a leader was a father in any respect back in the old Jewish law and so Isaiah, speaking of Jesus Christ as being a leader among the people he said he will be a father, he will be an everlasting father. But that didn’t mean that God the Father wasn’t also a Father.
Well, now we’re going to notice the next time — thing — I want to read a few passages of scripture and then we’ll get into some more diagrams or some more of these charts that we have.
He says that God wasn’t equal — that you can’t have Jesus equal with God. Well now it’s a pity Paul didn’t know that. You know when Paul wrote to the church at Philippi he didn’t know that. If you thinhe
did you turn to the second chapter of Philippians and the fifth andsixth verses, and I hear him say, “Let this mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus: Who, being in form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” Did you know that was in there, Mr. Magee? Well, if you did you certainly stumbled over it. Yes, he said they couldn’t be equal. The Apostle Paul says they are equal. He said that Jesus Christ thought it not mockery — robbery to be equal with God. What do you think about that, Mr. Magee? Say look at me. What do you think about that? Read that. Phil. 2:5-7. Find it for him, Mr. Urshan, and show that to him. Equal with God. He said he couldn’t be equal with God. Paul said he is equal with God.
Now you know he talks about what Toddy does and what Toddy doesn’t do and what Toddy is going to do and what Toddy won’t do. If I ever get caught in a trap like that, I’LL tell you one thing Toddy will do, that is, he’ll go home. Yes. Paul says he is equal with God. Let me tell you, my friends, there is not a religious question that any man under the shining canopy of heaven can ask that isn’t answered in God’s Book. You just try it. There isn’t a one. And he got himself hanged now upon they can’t be equal.
Well, I’m going to reenter — I want chart now, number eleven. We’re going to see there about some others. Chart number eleven was when Jesus was baptized. Now I want you to notice this. There is a voice over there in upper parts and between the voice and Jesus down in the water being baptized there is a dove. And if you will turn to the seventeenth verse of the third chapter of Matthew you will see there that when Jesus was baptized he came immediately up out of the water and lo the heavens were opened and a voice said, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And Jesus saw the spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove. How many were there then? If you will look right down at the bottom I have, Is Christ divided? If there were only one there then we find that Jesus Christ part of Him in the water, part of Him in heaven and part of Him coming down.
Well, I want to read a few more passages of scripture now. I’ve answered his scriptures and I want to read you some now to show you that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and was not the Father.
In the second chapter of Acts there when they met on the day of Pentecost — my opponent over here agrees that is the Church, that is the first day of the Church. That’s when the Church was born, on the day of Pentecost. And there was the great phenomena that came and they began to hear those people speak in other tongues. They began to deny it and say that these men are drunk but Peter said, “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by signs and wonders which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up . . .for it was not possible that he should be holden of it. “Then he went on to say that David foresaw him before his face. “He is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was made glad; moreover, also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither will thou suffer my flesh to see corruption.”
Now I want to point out the fact that Peter there shows two. He shows the flesh and he shows the spirit. Thou wilt not leave my spirit in hell neither wilt thou suffer thy Holy One or my flesh to see corruption. We’ve got two of them there and he’s talking about the two. You won’t allow them to see corruption. And then again we hear him when he says that God has raised up that Jesus whereof we are all witnesses. Therefore, being exalted at the right hand of God.
“Into Thy hand I commend my Spirit.” Who was that? Who was that, Brother Magee? Father, into Thy hands I commend my Spirit. And then again you hear him as He was upon the cross praying and He said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Does that sound like a man talking to himself? Oh no, my friend. He’s going to have to do better than that Jesus Christ said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Now I want you to turn your attention to the fifteenth chapter of I Corinthians when the Apostle Paul writing to the Church in Corinth beginning with the 22nd verse he said, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits: afterward
they that are his at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father . . .” That sounds like he’s talking about himself? “. . . when he shall have delivered up the kingdom of God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all power and all authority. For he must reign, until all enemies are under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.” For he has put all enemies under his feet. But when he said all enemies are under him it is manifest that he is excepted who did put all under him. And when all have been subdued under him then the Son Himself, don’t forget this, then the Son Himself will be subject unto him who hath put all things under him. You tell me that’s just the person? You’ll never be able to make me see any such thing as that. That there’s just one person What’s he talking about — he put all things under him. He didn’t say he put it under himself. And then he went on to say that when all things are subdued unto him then the Son Himself will be put under Him. Now I know that you can’t get just one out of that. All right. We begin to see then that those things are speaking of more than one.
Now I want the chart where we have the mediator. I don’t recall just the number now but it’s in Ephesians the second chapter and the fifth verse. Now here we have it. Paul said, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” Up here we have a man there, representing God. Between them we have the mediator. In connection with that I am going to read the second chapter of I John and the first verse, and he says, “These things write I unto you, little children, that ye sin not. But if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” The word advocate there is translated from the Greek word “Paraclete” which means a lawyer which pleads the case of somebody who has done wrong. The lawyer steps between the man who has committed the crime and the judge, and that is the advocate as he stands there. Here is Jesus that stepped between the offender and the offended. Man has offended God and Jesus stands between the two and he pleadst he case of man making intercession unto the Father and there we have the two. The mediator and God and the offender.
Now the next chart that I want is chart number two. There where it says I John 5:11. “There are three. . .” That’s the wrong chart. Pardon me, I made a mistake. I want the one that says, “There are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.” Don’t you see it, my friends? My worthy opponent says there is one but the Apostle John says oh, Mr. Magee, you’re wrong, there are three. “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
Now my opponent wonders how these three can be one. I call your attention now to John the seventeenth chapter and begin with the 20th verse. There the Apostle John writes and says, “Father neither pray I for these alone, but for all them which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou are, Father, in me, and I, in thee, that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they might be one, even as we are one.” God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one, just like Jesus Christ and Christians are one. You want to know how they are one? All right, I call your attention to the first chapter of I Corinthians beginning with the tenth verse and now we hear the Apostle Paul when he said, “I beseech you, therefor, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing,that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”
That’s the way Christians are one. That’s the way God, the, Son and the Holy Spirit are one. They’re all one in purpose. They’re all one in thought. They’re one in judgment. There’s no division among them. Now isn’t that easy? Friends, I wish everything was as easy as that. I wish everything was as easy to prove as that. Well, you’re already beginning to wonder what Mr. Magee is going to say. Well, he won’t have much of anything to say. You just watch. He couldn’t answer that — let me tell you he couldn’t answer that if he were on a scaffold 1000 feet high with a rope around his neck and it was going to be tripped if he didn’t. He couldn’t answer it. That’s what the Bible says. That’s not what I said. That’s what God said. God said there are three. My opponent says there are not three. And then he said, Philip have I been so long with you and you haven’t seen me? You haven’t known me?
All right. Jesus said to His disciples in John 14:20, and He said, “He that receives you received me; and he that received me received him that sent me.” All right. Did that make the Apostle God? No. Then how can my opponent explain how Jesus could say that he who receives you receives me. Were they the same, Mr. Magee?
Were they the same? Jesus said to His disciples, “He who receives you receives me. And he that receives me receives the Father who sent me.”The John . . . Thank you.
Gordon Magee’s Second Affirmative
Honorable opponent, moderators, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. Toddy says (Laughter) he objects to me putting words into his mouth. Actually I am not I know what he believes from the second proposition. He has told us in advance. It is no secret what he believes.
However, let that be as may. Our good friend says, we do not deny the Deity of Christ. We do not deny the Deity of Christ. That’s interesting. If they do not deny the Deity of Christ, then pray tell me why are we all here? (Laughter) I understood that I was defending the proposition Jesus is the Supreme Deity. I understand that Mr. Toddy is in the negative and he is denying that Jesus is the Supreme Deity. Have you understood it that way? That’s what I thought it was all about. Now he comes up, smiling all over like a basket of chips, and tells me that he does not deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. Didn’t I warn you they would plunder Him even while they praise Him.
I made a statement. It’s irrefutable. I repeat it. To deny His Supreme Deity is to deny His Deity. And a Deity not Supreme is no Deity at all.
Then a reference was made to the excellent prayer of my good moderator, Brother Urshan. We have three in our prayers. Why bless your heart, yes, we have three in our prayers. Neither would we desire fewer than three in our prayers. And here’s news. We have three in our hearts. Three what? Three persons? Oh no. No, no. Hear it” We believe in the Father, and we believe in the Son and we believe in the Holy Ghost. And we appreciate the little lesson in arithmetic but don’t we know that one and one and one make three. Three what? That’s the question.
Three persons, says Mr. Toddy. And that’s the word I’m waiting to see in scripture relative to God. Show me the word “persons” in scripture relative to God and so help me, I’LL join the Church of Christ. (Laughter). Mr. Toddy said we regret ever having penned the proposition. I don’t think so. I’ve heard nothing up to the moment that caused me the slightest pang of regret. I’m still determined to stand up — stand up for Jesus. All right. We regret having penned the proposition that Jesus is the Supreme Deity. Perish the thought that we should ever regret subscribing in support to such a proposition.
But he says a Supreme Deity indicates that there are inferior Deities. Who are they? I’LL tell you. The Deities which exist in his imagination and the Deities that exist in the imagination of people like him. There was quite a controversy in the Old Testament between the one true God and Pseudo gods. Quite a controversy indeed. In Jeremiah 2:11, Jeremiah 5:7 Jehovah had an argument against gods who are no gods. And we talk of the Supreme Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, meaning He is above all other imagined gods or supposed gods created by Roman theologians.
Jesus died, says Mr. Toddy. So then for three days we have no God. Galatians 2:20 tells me who died. The Son died. The Son died. And the Son, wherever you find it in scripture, relates to what our Lord is as to His humanity. Wherever you read of the Son in scripture, two thoughts should be uppermost in your mind — humanity and time. Not deity and eternity. For instance, the Bible says the Son has blood God as such doesn’t have blood. The Bible says the Son died. God as such didn’t die. The Bible says the Son doesn’t know the time of the coming. But there’s no ignorance in omniscience, no ignorance in God. And so the plain truth is the Son died That’s why the Almighty assumed a body of flesh which is the Son. For that purpose He came into the world that the Son might die in order to accomplish our redemption.
We have never said the Father died, and that’s what Jesus was as to His Deity. If ye have seen me ye have seen the Father. He is the everlasting Father. Oh, that’s a corker, isn’t it?
I remember once seeing a joiners shop — a carpenters shop — in Ireland, and outside there was a notice “All Sorts of Turning and Twisting Done Here.” Making fancy legs for tables, chairs and what-have-you. All sorts of turning and twisting done here. I tell you, that’s one place where Trinitarians have to do a bit of turning and do a bit of twisting. Plainly it says, “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father.”
Quote Mr. Toddy, “Jesus is our father in the sense that He is our leader.” All right. In a certain sense Jesus is our Father, says Mr. Toddy, in the sense that He is our Leader. Well if Jesus is our Father, His Father in turn would be our Grandfather, wouldn’t He? (Laughter).
And the Word was with God. No difficulty there because the Bible plainly says the Word was God. It doesn’t say the Son was with the Father in the beginning. It says the Word was with God. Do you know where my word is tonight? Right with me. Do you see two of us standing up here tonight? If you do you are not sober enough to be here. (Laughter).
Then a most extraordinary allegation. Mr. Toddy maintains I said Jesus was not equal with God. Well, you can’t eat your pie and still have it. Listen to this. The proposition that I am defending is that Jesus is the Supreme Deity. Now if you can make Him any higher than that you have a try at it. In spite of the fact that I am defending the proposition that Jesus is the Supreme Deity, bless your heart, if I’m not accused of saying that Jesus isn’t equal with God. I don’t think it works out, do you? I can’t be guilty of both things at once. I can’t be guilty of defending a proposition that Jesus is the Supreme Deity and at the same time be guilty af saying that Jesus is not equal with God. I made it clear that I believe Jesus to be. He is the Father, He is the Son and He is the Holy Ghost. He’s equal to the Father, equal to the Son and equal to the Holy Ghost. In Him dwells all the fulness of the godhead bodily. I’m not in sympathy with anybody who tries to sell Jesus short. It smell wrong to me. It smells of Rome, the folk who introduced it. They introduced it in A. D. 325. Prior to that, certainly in Apostolic times, folk believed Jesus to be the Mighty God and that was that. The plan of the anti-Christ was to get folk worshipping a plurality of objects of worship. He couldn’t get folk around to worshipping various objects of worship until he first decisively smashed the truth of the one mighty God in Christ who was the Supreme Deity. And so he worked on that and told the folks the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons in the godhead and you’ve got to give equal worship to all three. Such is the teaching of Rome, the council of Nicea 325 A. D. And so the bewildered people tried to worship a co-equal Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The plan of the anti-Christ behind the whole thing was to condition the mind of the worshipper to a plurality of objects of worship.
Until today the most idolatrous system under heaven is the Roman Catholic Church. The first step toward it was the abolition of the one God in Christ and the introduction of the three God theory.
Mr. Toddy says, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” He quotes that. “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” As if that were a difficulty to us. None in the wide world. Hear me. The second proposition — proposition number two — which he has signed, a copy of which I have here at my desk, Mr. Toddy believes in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are eternally co-equal and they are one God. Then we have the spectacle of a Father, Divine person number one, God number one, turning His back on God number two. Let him say he believes in three. One thing he dare not say that he believes in one, when the Bible says one, one, one, one, one! Why his gods are capable of walking out on each other!
I sincerely hope — I’m so glad there’s no such a thing as the Trinity as taught by Mr. Toddy. Three co-equal Divine persons who can forsake each other!
You may have heard about the little boy who was going to bed one night and he said, “God bless my mommy, God bless my daddy and God bless my brothers and sisters, and God, you take care of yourself because if anything happened to you it would be curtains for all of us.” Well, you know something could happen if Mr. Toddy’s presentation of the godhead is correct, and there are three co-equal persons the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, and one God is capable of forsaking the other.
Then to my great amazement he takes us to I Corinthians 15:25 where the Son delivers up the kingdom to the Father, and the Son becomes subject to the Father. So he has one of his co-equal Divine persons everlastingly subject to another Divine Person. Where is the co-equality if Divine Person number two, the Son, is going to be eternally subject to Divine person number one, the Father? As far as I am concerned, the trinitarian theory is a bucket full of holes. I’m so glad I don’t subscribe to it any longer. All right. Now here we have a chart number six “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and Man, the man Christ Jesus.” I don’t want the lights out. No, keep the lights on “Let there be light” (Laughter) we are not among the company of people who enjoy darkness. I Timothy 2:5, “For there is
one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.” One God. Who is Mr. Toddy’s one God? He said this one God eternally co-exists in three co-equal persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. So the verse, according to him, should read, “For there is one Trinity….” God is a trinity according to him. All right. There is one trinity, and one mediator between the trinity and men, The man Christ Jesus. That doesn’t fit, does it? That puts Jesus out of the trinity. A very peculiar feature of trinitarianism is this. They say the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are three co-equal person, eternally co-equal. Now they have a mediator between men and the Father, to reconcile them to the Father. But they have no mediator between men and the Son to reconcile them to the Son and they have no mediator between men and the Holy Spirit to reconcile man to the Spirit. The thing doesn’t add up one way or another.
Then chart number one Jesus said, “And yet if I judge my judgment is true, For I am not alone but I and the Father that sent me.” When will trinitarians ever learn that Jesus was more than a man? When will trinitarians ever learn that Jesus was God? When will they learn that in Him Divinity and humanity was fused but not confused. He was still properly man and still properly God.
Jesus was no ordinary personality. Jesus was an extraordinary personality. The singular number may adequately describe little you and little me but He who was the meeting place of God and man could properly use plurals to describe His natures. Not to describe persons. Show me a plurality of persons anywhere in the Bible and I’ll get off this platform fast. you can’t. A plurality of natures in Jesus, yes. One Divine, the other human. One the Father and the other the Son. One Spirit and the other flesh. The plurals in connection with Jesus are utterly and absolutely necessary, He being gloriously unique.
All right. Jesus said, “I am one that bear witness of myself and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.” Jesus quoted the Jews’ law. He said your law says the testimony of two men is true. All right, says Jesus, I bear witness and the Father that sent me beareth witness.
This is what I want to say to Mr. Toddy just here and now. Be very careful. This verse may prove too much. It says, “It is also written in your law that the testimony of two MEN is true” How far will you push it, Mr. Toddy? Will you tell us that the Father and the Son are two men? We dare you. We dare you, to face this congregation and tell us that the Father and the Son are two men. Will you say they are two persons? We say, find it. You might find it between the lines, but you won’t find it on the lines. Persons do not occur in this quotation.
What then, are the Father and the Son? The Father and the Son, bless your heart, are two, witnesses. Two witnesses. Now hear it. Hebrews chapter one, “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets. . .” God has spoken. God the Father. He has spoken and He witnessed by the prophets, and in the prophets the Father has witnessed concerning His Son. The Bible speaks of Christ in all the scriptures. Christ rebuked the apostles because they couldn’t seemingly understand that the prophets had spoken of Him in all the scriptures. So the Father, in a day now gone, by the prophets gave His witness to the Son. All right, “God who at sundry times and; in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets has in these last days spoken unto
by His Son.” There you’ve got the two witnesses. The spirit of the Father in the prophets witnessing to Christ, and the Son Himself. Two-witnesses, if you please, not two men, not two persons.
The Church of Christ says, “We speak where the Bible speaks; we are silent where the Bible is silent”. Jesus Christ, in this little chart taken from the Bible, talked about two witnesses. Let’s echo His language. Jesus Christ didn’t say a thing about two persons. If He was silent and refrained from saying two persons, let us be silent and refrain from saying two persons. Find me persons relative to God in the Bible if you can.
Then they say Jesus made a misleading argument. Not at all, Jesus didn’t make a misleading argument. Let me tell you something about the Word of God. Do you know that God in scripture very often, without doing violence to the truth, accommodates himself to our thoughts? I said He accommodates Himself to our thoughts. For instance, the Bible says God repented. Now we know that God is immutable. He doesn’t repent. God uses that language in talking to your finite mind and mine to get home a certain truth. He repented.
The Bible says God remembered. God remembered Noah. Now you know God never forgets. Yet the Bible says God remembers. God accommodating Himself to your thought and mine without doing violence to the truth.
God said to Moses, “I have come down to deliver them.” (The Israelites). Now bless your heart. God is omnipresent. He’s everywhere present at once. He doesn’t need to come down. He’s here. He’s there. He’s everywhere.
The Bible says the sun stood still. Was God misleading the people? Is the Bible misleading? Who ever believed the sun moved? The Bible says the sun stood still and hasted not to go down for a whole day. God accommodating Himself, (without doing violence to the truth), to your concept and mine.
The Bible talks about the four corners of the earth and you know that really there’s no four corners of the earth any more than there’s four corners on a baseball. Eight minutes! I wish I had time to into a thorough rebuttal but what staggered me was the extraordinary way in which my opponent evaded the principal supports which I endeavored to give in support of the Supreme Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. No reply was given to the scriptures in John 17:11, 12 which make it clear that Jesus is the name which the Son received from the Father; therefore, the name of Jesus is not confined only to the Son but is also the right of the Father.
No reply was given to the scriptures we gave to prove that Jesus is the Holy Ghost. A good deal of talk was made about another Comforter. Another Comforter. Do you know what Jesus said in the same connection? Talking about the Holy Ghost? Jesus said to the apostles in effect, he said I am going away; The Holy Ghost is coming. Now the world doesn’t know too much about the Holy Ghost. This is in effect what Jesus said. But, said Jesus to the apostles, ye know of him. You apostles know the Holy Ghost because, says Christ, He dwelleth with you and shall be in you. Who was dwelling with them? Jesus. And when He came as the Holy Ghost, the Bible said it was the Spirit of Jesus. Who came? Another? We are not worried by the word “another.”
After His resurrection Jesus appeared unto the apostles in “another” form. In another form. Was it no longer Jesus because it was “another” form? The Holy Ghost is here, we can so speak, in another form. It’s Jesus in another form.
One tremendous scripture. Now I’ll admit there’s parts of the Bible not easy to understand, but this is not one of them. Revelation 1:18 Jesus said, “I am the Almighty.” If there is a Trinity, then Jesus was a title stealer.
The most He could say would be, “I am one-third of Almightiness.” I’ve got to get together with my partners if ever to make the totality of Almightiness.” But Jesus didn’t talk that way. He said, “I am the
Almighty.” Didn’t he, Mr. Toddy? Yes.
John 8:56, another scripture which he sidestepped. Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” How dare He make such a claim if He didn’t know He was the Father. How dare he make such a claim if He didn’t know He was the Holy Ghost? It was out of the fullness of His divine consciousness, realizing His full orbed Deity, realizing that He was not only the Son, He was the Father – it was out of the depth of that consciousness that He could make the claim. “I AM.” “Before Abraham was, I AM.” These things have not been answered.
Again we ask Mr. Toddy, since the Bible says that there’s only one good and that is God. The one God is good, says Jesus. Luke 18:19. If Jesus isn’t the one God then in some sense He is not good. Name that sense, Mr. Toddy. But if you will tell me, and I dare you not to tell me, that Jesus is the essence of goodness; if you will tell me, and I dare you not to, that Jesus is absolute goodness then I compel you to admit He is the one God. For there is none good but one, that is God.
Three. Three. One and one makes two and I suppose another one makes three. But what we are interested in, I repeat again, is this: three what? Prove three persons if you can. We have a verse here, also thrown on the screen, “There are three that bear record in heaven; the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost. These three are one.” Three what?We believe in the Father, we believe in the Word, we believe in the Holy Ghost. We believe they are three but we deny they are three persons. Also surely Mr. Toddy, being a scholar, understands how questioned this verse is by the scholars. Surely he knows it didn’t make its appearance until the tenth century and even Mr. Schofiled maintains that it is an interpolation and has no right to be there whatsoever. But even though it is there, we are not in the least embarrassed.
Jordan’s banks. Well, what about Jordan’s banks? We see Jesus in the water, but hear me. That one, Who as to His physical form was in the water, that same One distinctly claims to be everywhere present at once. John 3:13. He says. “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” Standing there before Nichodemus, “The Son of man which is in heaven.” Jesus is omnipresent. You’d almost think, to hear Mr. Toddy, that this second person appearing in the water of Jordan did not have the attribute of omnipresence.
What did Jesus say in the fourteenth of John? He said, “Thy Father that sent me He doeth the work.” Jesus as a man disowned or disavowed that He was responsible for any of the supernatural things that were associated with His ministry. He said I am not responsible for the supernatural and the miraculous things. He says the Father that dwelleth in me He doeth the works.
The supernatural voice that was heard from heaven, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased” According to Christ was the work of the Father, which dwelleth in Him. Do you know the Christ whom I serve is so wonderful He can make a donkey talk? And He did. He can make stones talk. He said He could. He could make a bush talk and startled Moses. And He could make a cloud talk. Anything that doesn’t involve an absurdity my Savior can do because He is God.
Then says Mr. Toddy in connection with Jordan’s banks, is Christ divided? Is Christ divided? I’m not the divider. I don’t believe in three persons. I stand for the Oneness of God. If any body’s doing any dividing it appears to be Mr. Toddy. As far as I’m concerned I’m satisfied to look in the face of Jesus and say, “Jesus, you’re my God, and if my God you’re my Father.” I’m satisfied to look in the face of Jesus and seeing there a perfect humanity I acknowledge He’s the Son. I’m satisfied to know when I look in the face of Jesus that what I have in my heart as the Holy Ghost is from Him. I don’t divide the godhead. My opponent and nobody else does.
Mr. Toddy’s Second Denial
Mr. Moderators, ladies and gentlemen. I’m certainly glad to have this opportunity. I tell you he really got in trouble on the last one. I thought he mixed it up just about as much as he could the first thirty minutes but he got in worse and worse as he went along.
We’re going to notice some of the things. He got a little funny there — at least he attempted to, and he said when he was in Ireland, he’s an Irishman, you can tell from his tie he’s from Ireland; and he said when he was in Ireland he saw a sign over a shop that said, “All kinds of Turning and Twisting Here.” And he applied that to me.
Well, since he’s from Ireland he ought to appreciate this one. There was a snake, an Irishman’s snake. and it said that he wriggled in and wriggled out, and left the people all in doubt as to whether the snake that made the track was going north or coming back. That’s the way he is. You can’t tell whether he’s pitchin’ or catchin’ or whether he’s coming or going. He hit it on every side and so you can understand that.
Hold my time. He wants to talk to me. I’m not responsible for what you get into now.
MAGEE: Mr. Toddy’s history is as defective as his theology. There are no snakes in Ireland. (Continued applause.)
TODDY: That sounds pretty good but I didn’t say the snake was in Ireland. I said it was an Irishman’s snake. He lived in Houston, Texas, where there are plenty of them. (Laughter).
I told you I wasn’t responsible for what you’d get into when you started talking.
Now he says to show me where the pronoun “persons” refers to God and he will join the Church of Christ. Well, he doesn’t know that he can’t join the Church of Christ. He’s just that mixed up in the Bible. You’re added to the church. Acts 2:47. You’re born into the church. John 3:5. You can’t join the Church of Christ. You may join the thing you belong to but you can’t join the Church of Christ. But I’m going to show you that just to help him a little.
You turn now to Hebrews the first chapter. “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, by whom also He made the worlds: Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person –” There you’ve got it. God’s person. And Jesus was the express image of God’s person. No. No? I was reading the Bible lady. I know it doesn’t suit your doctrine but that’s the Bible I was quoting when you hollered “NO”. You’d better keep things quiet because they’re going to get you in worse trouble than you’re in if possible.
All right. Now he got mixed up on the Son. When he began talking about the Son he said the Son died. And I said that if the Son was God then the world was without a God for three days. And he said, oh the Son was all that died and the Son was the flesh and the flesh was what died.
Well, I remember that when they martyred poor old Stephen in the seventh chapter of Acts he said, “Behold I see the heavens opened and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.” Was that the flesh? Was it? Talk out if you want to. No law against it. You’ll do your talking — yes, you will.
Don’t you see? What was it standing at the right hand of God? He said it’s the flesh, the flesh is what died. But Philip didn’t agree with him. I mean Stephen. He said I saw the heavens opened and behold the Son of man standing at the right hand of God. Isn’t that easy? Now that’s about the flesh.
All right. We’ll go just a little further. And he said that the way I had it that God would be his own grandfather or something like that. Well, you know the song about the man’s own grandfather. Now he’s got the whole thing all in together. The man’s his own father. The man’s his own father. The man’s his own son and if there was a grandfather of course he’d have to be his own grandfather. That’s the conclusion of your doctrine, Mr. Magee. I don’t believe anything like that. Don’t try to charge that foolishness on me. I don’t act that way.
All right. He came to John 1 again. John said, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” And you know he made the most ridiculous statement there. Why he said I’m up here and my word is with me. You think your word is equal to this one John is talking about? Mr. Magee? Would you dare compare yours with the one John’s writing about? John wasn’t writing about a noise or a word. He was writing about the Son of God. “In the beginning was the Word. . .” That word is capitalized. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. And all things were made by him and without Him not one thing was made that was made.” Yes, that’s the way it is.
And then down in the fourteenth verse, where it said, “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. . .”
All right. We’ll pass from that now. Let’s see chart. . .
No, first of all before we use the chart, if Rome introduced it. The three — Rome introduced it. Did you hear , people? Rome introduced it. Let me have chart number 2, will you please? We’ll see who introduced it. Rome introduced it. The Roman Catholic Church introduced it.
Number one, pardon me. Where it says there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Well, I’ve got the number mixed up here but anyway that’s what it is. “There are three that bear record in heaven. . . ” (Laughter and clapping.)
I remember when a lot of confusion happened in the 18th chapter of I Sam. when Elijah was arguing with the prophets of Baal. They squalled and they clapped their hands and they cut their flesh, they tore their clothes and they jumped up on the altars, they did everything, but they didn’t answer Elijah. You can do that if you want to.
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.” I don’t need such as that to help me. I’ve got the Bible. There it is Mr. Magee, did Rome write that verse? Did Rome write it, I’m asking you? You said Rome introduced it. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Rome didn’t write that. John wrote that. I John 5:7. “There are three that bear record in heaven; the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.” I don’t need a lot of handclapping to prove that. That’s in the Bible. And you know all he could do about that was to say, well, the scholar that Mr. Toddy is, he must know that that’s doubtful.
No, I don’t know any such thing and you don’t either. He tried to say that was put in the Bible in the tenth century and that’s not so. Why do you make such a reflection upon God’s Word as that for? That’s in some of the oldest manuscripts in the world, and we’ve got them back to the beginning of the fourth century. There are 1500 manuscripts in the world and what he’s trying to tell you is that the footnotes says that some of the oldest ones don’t have it but he didn’t say all of them didn’t have it. Now if that’s the best he can do is to reflect upon God’s Word by saying doesn’t Mr. Toddy know that that’s doubtful. No, I don’t and you don’t either. You just wish it was doubtful. You just wish it wasn’t in there.
Now let’s have the chart number twelve, please. No, that isn’t doubtful, my friends. And when you hear a person trying to reflect upon God’s Word to prove his doctrine you know there’s something wrong with his doctrine.
I said I go to the Father for the Father is greater than I. Yes sir. How can you be greater than yourself? Is there anybody in this house, including my worthy opponent, who will stand up and say he or she is greater than herself? You want to say something now? All right, say it.
Magee: Your next proposition which you have signed is this: (Toddy: I know what I’ve signed.)
You signed that God eternally exists in three co-equal persons, the Father; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost He will tell you that the Father is greater than the Son; he will tell you on Thursday night that they are co-equal.
Toddy: No, I Won’t. I’LL tell you just what I’m going (Laughter and applause.) You folks certainly are trying to help him and that’s good for the Lord knows he needs it. (Laughter) The Lord knows he needs it. Now he’ll tell you what Mr. Toddy is going to say (Magee: God grant it.) he’ll tell you what I’m going to tell you; now I’LL tell you what I’m going to tell you. And we’ll see if it agrees with what he’s going to tell you.
When Jesus was here He said, “I go to the Father for the Father is greater than I.” Now you turn over to Acts 2 and you will hear when Peter was talking there. And Peter said, “But God has made that same Jesus both Lord and Christ.” He made something He was not. What was it. Now you don’t know what Toddy’s going to say, do you? But you’ll know when this is over. He just hopes I’ll say it. Yes, Peter said, “God hath made this same Jesus whom ye crucified both Lord and Christ” You didn’t know that was in the Bible, did you? Toddy knows what he’s doing. I’m not an amateur. You’re not going to rope me in like that.
All right. He said I go to the Father and my Father is greater than I. When God was — when Moses began to write Genesis in the third chapter and the 22nd verse, there Moses said that God said, “And the Lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of us. . .” What did the man become? As us? No. He became as one of us. There it is. Right on the chart. He said, “Don’t turn the lights out. Let there be light.” I think he needs it. My land, he needs it.
“And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us. To know good and evil.” To whom was he talking there, Mr. Magee? Was He talking to Himself. To whom was he talking?
(MAGEE): If the Lord God said the man has become as one of us and us means the Trinity, then that means that Adam was added to the Trinity and a quartet was former. (Continued Applause)
TODDY: What in the world is the matter with that man? (Laughter) Did you folks hear what he said just before you clapped your hands? (Amen, Amen). This says that man has become as one of us. Don’t you know what as means, Mr. Magee? It doesn’t mean one of them. It means as one of them. And they clapped their hands. They thought that was smart. Yes sir. Don’t you see that?
God didn’t say that he had become one of us. He said that he had become as one of us. Why Jesus Christ said that the kingdom of heaven is as a little child. You think it’s a little child, don’t you? Don’t you see what you’re getting into? You’d better keep your seat. As one of us. And did you hear what he said when he kept looking around, if God said that. Didn’t you know that was in the Bible? Why did you put that hypothetical if there? Don’t you know any more about the Bible than to know if that’s in the Bible. You want to talk again? Get ready to clap your hands, folks. (Laughter)
(MAGEE: Considering the source, I believe the charts and slides well worth scrutinizing. Thank you.)
TODDY: Considering the source. Now what does he mean by that? Considering the source, You mean you don’t think our source is very good? You just called me a scholar in your last speech. Now you try to consider the source. That source is from the Bible. That’s the word of God, right there. And he had the audacity to say, considering the source, I think it’s all right. Well, you know where the source is. I’ll tell you where the source is. And the Lord God said it. Now that’s the source. You think it’s all right? (MAGEE: I certainly do) Well, thank you, I’m glad you came to that.
Now let’s have the lights please. Yes, there’s another one he’s hanged himself on. All right, we’ll go a little further.
And Christ said, “I can of myself do nothing.” and He said, “but the Father who sent me.” And now we have God does not repent. Did you hear him say that? You know we’re going to teach him a little Bible here. You turn to Jonah the third chapter and the eighth verse. “And God saw their works and that they turned from their evil ways and God repented of the evil that He could do unto them and He did it not.” Yes He repents. He doesn’t repent from evil because He doesn’t do any evil, but He repents.
Jesus said in John 16 beginning with the seventh verse, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and judgment.” And he will take that which is mine and will shew it unto you. Does that sound like one, Mr. Magee? Oh, but he said I didn’t answer his questions. He said that Jesus said there is none good but God. Yes, when a man came to Jesus and said, “Good Master,” Jesus said, “Why call me good, there is none good but God.” You know what Jesus did? He made man confess that He was God, The man called Him good. Jesus said there’s none good but God, so therefore you call me God. You admit that I am God. And he never saw that before.
All right. We’ll go just a little further now. The Son of man which is in heaven. Now if the Son of man died, and if He were the flesh, then how come He’s in heaven, Mr. Magee? The Bible says flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven but you’ve got flesh in heaven. Now put that down. Go to writing about it, study about it.
Now I want some more charts. I want chart number seven, please. “I can of mine own self do nothing. There is another that bears witness of me.” Who is it? I want you to notice this, my friends. Jesus told them, “I can of mine own self do nothing. There is another that bears witness of me.” You know who Jesus said that was. In the 28th verse He said, “And the Father which hath sent me hath borne witness of me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.” And he said another. How’s he going to get that in there?
All right, let’s have chart number ten pease. No pardon me, that’s the wrong one. I want the baptism, the chart on John the Baptist, number eleven it is. And there is the voice. Now he said that God was manifested in the voice but that was the voice of God. It wasn’t God manifested in a voice. Jesus Christ said that the heavens opened and God said — a voice said, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” There is Jesus Christ in the water. There is the dove coming in the form — the spirit coming in the form of the dove, and there is the voice from heaven. There are the three of them.
And then we get back again when John said there are three that bear record in heaven.
All right, next I call your attention to Colossians 2:9. “In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the godhead bodily.” What is the godhead? That word godhead would not be used if there were not more than one in it. It would have been, “In him dwelleth all the fullness of God.” I call your attention now to Matthew 28:18-19 that will explain that. Jesus Christ appeared unto his disciples and He said, “All power has been given unto me in heaven and on earth.” All power has been given unto me . .” You can’t transact a gift unless there are two persons. Jesus said, somebody has given me power. Who gave it to him, Mr. Magee? Tell us who gave it to Him. All power has been given unto me. And so in Him dwelleth all the power, all the fullness, all the brightness of the godhead bodily. But that doesn’t mean that God didn’t have power too because you might take a policeman here in town. If they need to arrest a man, maybe the chief of police would tell him to go arrest a man. And he would say, well, what power do I have? The chief of Police would say you have all the power of the city of Martinsville. Would that mean the chief didn’t have any? Why, of course not. Can’t you see that?
What did you say about my name? I was just one of the Toddy boys. There are three others. Am I just one-fourth Toddy? You looked over that, didn’t you? You didn’t see that. You want to say something about that? No, he didn’t see that.
All right, now you begin to see how easy it is to answer his arguments. Jesus Christ was the Son of God. Jesus Christ came to earth and He died. God said it. John 3:16 says that “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” God gave what? God gave His Son. Is His Son God? No. Not in the sense the Father is. He’s God of course. But He’s not the Father. God gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. And when Jesus died and went to heaven He sat down at the right hand of God. But He appeared unto Mary and He said, “Mary, touch me not, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father. But go tell my brethren that I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” Does that sound like one? Of course it doesn’t. It’s two. There couldn’t be two, uh, more than two, uh, in that verse. (Laughter) So you see he’s got two. “I go to my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.”
Now you want to know where the next one is that makes the three? In the first John the fifth chapter and the seventh verse, “There are three that bear record in heaven. . .” And he talks about trinity as if he didn’t know what the word trinity means. The word trinity means three. “There are three that bear record in heaven” Who are they? The Father , the Word and the Holy Ghost And these three are one. And Jesus said to the Father, that the glory that thou gavest me I have given them that they may be one even as we are one. Why that’s just as easy as anything in the world. You can see that. Thank you. That it is easy to show that there — you just — they can’t talk without having more than one.
He said, oh Toddy says that there is no deity. Is that right? You said that the other time, that Toddy says there is no deity. Now you know that isn’t so, Mr. Magee. Now there isn’t any need to stand up here in front of all this great crowd of people and tell something you know isn’t true. All right. You want to talk again? Get up. Hold my time. Turn the lights on please.
(Magee: I did not say that Mr. Toddy says there is no deity.)
I made the statement that Mr. Toddy has no supreme deity. He has three co-equal persons. He’s denying this proposition that one of them is almighty. The other two being co-equal therefore,
cannot be almighty. I said he had no Supreme Deity.)
I accept his explanation but I’ve got it recorded and I’LL play it and show you tomorrow night he said Toddy says there is no Deity. He said he signed his name to it and I sat right over there and heard it two or three times. And then finally he came up and said there can’t be any Deity unless there is a Supreme Deity. I know what you said. I was listening to you. You said Toddy says there is no deity. You said it in both speeches you made. You know it isn’t so. I don’t blame you I’d try to fix it up too. There is no deity, he says I said. We don’t say any such thing.
But let me tell you he never straightened it up how there could be a Supreme Deity without being an inferior deity, did he? You want to get up and talk about that now? Let’s hear something about that. You missed it in both your speeches. How could there be a Supreme Deity unless there is an inferior deity? You don’t want to say anything, do you? I don’t blame you. I wouldn’t either.
Now you see he says that Jesus Christ is the Supreme Deity. Well, that suggests there is an inferior deity. Who is he? You’d better tell these people. They’ll be disappointed in you. There is an inferior deity. When you say that Christ is the Supreme Deity, then we want to know well who is the inferior Deity. Mr. Urshan, can you tell him? Mr. Potter, can you tell him? None of you can tell him. Well, I hope he gets to somebody tonight that will tell him before tomorrow, and tomorrow night we’ll see if he can tell us who is the Supreme Deity.
Jesus Christ is equal to the Father. In Philippians the second chapter and the fifth and sixth verses it says, “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” Now you can’t be equal with yourself. There’s got to be another. And that says that Christ being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
And one day when He was talking to the Pharisees and He spoke of His Father in heaven, they took up stones to stone Him because He said that His Father in heaven made Him equal with God. Did you ever read that? All right now, we begin to see it.
In the Old Testament, back in Genesis the first chapter and the twenty-sixth verse when God said, “Let us make man. . .” Let us make him in our own image. Now there’s no need to put an if to that. It’s back there. Let us make man. That word “us” there or God, is in the plural. It’s in the Hebrew “Elohim” which is plural, “And the Gods said, let us make man.” Now to whom was He talking? You better get to Writing because you’ve got a lot to straighten up here. To whom was He talking when He said, “And the Gods said Let us make man. . .”
John 8:18. “For I and the Father that sent me.” He said I dare you to say they are men. It doesn’t make any difference whether they are men or persons or whatever they are. There are two of them. Don’t you see that? I’m not talking about whether they are men. I’m not talking about whether they’re angels. I’m not talking about what they are. I’m talking about how many there are. Look up here. I’m talking about how many there are. I say there are two. Jesus Christ says there are two. And he tried to cover it up by saying, “Well, I dare you to say they are men.” Why I never said anything about whether they are men or what they are. I only said they are two. He said they’re one. John says it’s not so; they’re two.
“And if I judge my judgment is true for I am not alone.” And I made the argument that the only difference in what God said in the garden of Eden and the devil is a “not”. And the only difference in what Jesus Christ said and my opponent is a “not.” He says they are not two. Jesus Christ says they are two. “I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.”
“It is also written in your law that the testimony of two, t-w-o, two t-w-o, two, two. Now do you know how many two are? One and one equal two. Jesus Christ and the Father equal two. You wish I would stop at two? I know you do. If you had your wishes you wish I would stop on one. But I’m not going to do it. I’m going right where the Bible says. The Bible says there are three. The Bible says that the testimony of two men is true and if Jesus Christ wasn’t telling the truth about it He deceived the people to whom He was talking. He laid down a premise and made an argument upon it. He said there were two. “I am one.” Jesus Christ, Mr. Magee, said, “I am one and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.” I and the Father. Every time you see the coordinate conjunction “and” it means plus. I plus the Father equals two. Don’t you see that?
Now I want to go again to the mediator. In the fifth chapter of I Timothy the second chapter and fifth verse we have it where it says, “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” There is one God and He sits upon the witness stand. There is one mediator over there that stands down in front of the dock. There is the man over there that committed sin. I read to you I John the second chapter and the first verse where it says, “And these things write I unto you little children, that ye sin not; but if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. All right Jesus Christ the righteous stands between man and pleads the case of the sinner to God.
Let’s have the lights please. He stands pleading the case of God. And then again we find that Jesus is the interceder. Now He makes intercession for us. He stands between us. He was man. And I want to read to you now in the fifth chapter of Eph., the fourth chapter first, the one that he used when he said that there is one spirit. Oh I want to read all that. He just garbled that quotation. There the apostle Paul said, “There is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling: One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Didn’t you see that Spirit was God and God was the Father? Didn’t you see that in there when you read it? Is that the reason you didn’t read it all? You didn’t see it, did you? Well, it’s there just the same.
Now he was going to make you think that the Spirit there was everything. But no, Paul didn’t stop there. “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord . . . One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Don’t you see? That’s right. Thank you. Yes, we have it that way now. So we’ll pass from there showing that there are three even in that.
Now the next passage of scripture I call you attention to is Eph. 5:5, and there’s where the apostle Paul says, that no fornicator or unclean person or idolator or covetous man hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ of God. What does the conjunction “and” mean, Mr. Magee? It says that he has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God, showing that there are two in it. That the kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of God are occupied by the two persons. I don’t know why he has read the Bible as much as he claims he has and he didn’t see that, that the Bible talks about the kingdom of Christ and of God.
I want to bring in another quotation in the great commission, when Jesus Christ was recorded by Mark in Mark the sixteenth chapter and the seventeenth verse. “And these signs shall-follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them.” And when He had spoken to them He ascended into heaven and sat down. Where Mr. Magee. Where did He sit down? The Bible says that when He had spoken to them He ascended into heaven and sat down. Where did he sit, Mr. Magee? You know. That’s one of your choice verses. You know where he sat, don’t you? Where did he sit? “And He ascended into the heaven and he sat down.” Do you people know where he sat? And when he had spoken to them he ascended into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. Now what are you going to say about it? Now say Amen. He sat down on the right hand of God. Can Mr. Magee sit down at his own right hand? Get up and show us how you can do that. Thank you.
Gordon Magee’s Third Affirmative
Honorable opponent, moderators, ladies and gentlemen. It is my inestimable privilege to once again have the opportunity of defending the Supreme Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The question was raised or the objection was made that if we talk about Jesus as being the Supreme Deity then we are handling our grammar in a rather sloppy way. We have been asked the question, “If Jesus is the Supreme Deity, who then are the inferior Gods or Deities?” Here is the answer coming up. Deuteronomy 10:17. Tell me if my proposition tonight is not in utter harmony with this scripture. Deuteronomy 10:17. “For Jehovah your God is God of gods and Lord of lords. A great God and a mighty and a terrible which regardeth not persons nor taketh reward.” Joshua 22:2. “Jehovah, God of Gods.” “Jehovah, God of gods, He knoweth and Israel He shall know.”
So the great God of the Bible Jehovah, is called the God of gods. Jeremiah 2:11 tells us what gods these happen to be. “Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods?” When we say that Jesus is the Supreme Deity, we mean that Jesus is supreme over every heathen deity. When we say that Jesus is the supreme deity we mean that Jesus is supreme over deities invented by the overwrought imaginations of trinitarians. Why anybody should object to a Supreme Deity or object to us claiming that Jesus is the Supreme Deity, I do not know, particularly if at the same time they profess to believe He is Deity. I want to make a point again tonight that a relative deity is an absurdity. You cannot be God up to a certain point. You cannot be partly God. I repeat, if Jesus is not God over all, then He is not God at all.
Romans 9:5 makes this very claim for Christ. Romans 9:5 reads, “And Christ came, who is over all.” Not over most or over all save two but over all. That is over all without exception. “. . . Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever, Amen.”
Tonight we repeat so that it may sink down deep into your ears, that to deny Christ’s Supreme Deity is to deny His Deity because a deity not supreme is no deity at all.
Oh, as I warned you, they’ll say some nice things about Jesus, but even as they praise Him they’ll plunder Him. They don’t look at Jesus and give an unqualified assent to His deity because they don’t believe in His supreme Deity. They say yes, He’s God, but . . there are two others who are co-equal with Him.
Now last night there was some questioning of our understanding of the name of Jesus. I hold in my hand a well known Bible dictionary, the work I understand of trinitarians, Peloubets Bible dictionary. On page 314 of that Bible dictionary I read the following: Jesus means Jehovah is Savior the Greek form of the name Joshua. Also in Strongs Concordance, a copy of which is nearby which my opponent can check, in the Greek dictionary, page 37, number 2424 I read this: “Jesus, that is Jehoshua.” Reference to the Hebrew dictionary of the same concordance page 48, number 3091; “Jehoshua, Jehovah saves.” So that’s
our definition of the name of Jesus. That it means Jehovah Savior is confirmed by accepted Christian scholarship. We say without fear of contradiction that the name Jesus means Jehovah Savior. And I would say this to my honorable opponent and all who share his views in this audience. Philippians 2:9-11 make it clear that “Every knee will bow to the name of Jesus.” Verse nine I read, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, and things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Now you might ask how does the whole of creation bowing the knee at the name of Jesus glorify the Father? Simply because. my friend, Jesus is the Father.
Romans 14:11, “For it is written, (it is written in Isaiah 45:23) As I live saith Jehovah, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
So when every knee bows to the name of Jesus and every; tongue confesses the name of Jesus, either voluntarily or involuntarily, they will be bowing to and confessing the name of one who is Jehovah, God, Supreme Deity.
Jesus, we repeat, is the name of the Son and that is self evident and generally accepted. Jesus, we maintain, and this is contested, is the name of the Father. Hebrews 1:4 indicates He received it by inheritance, that is from His Father. John 17:11-12 in the revised version, not this recent scandalous revised version but if I can so call it, the revised King James which Mr. Toddy tells me he sometimes uses. John 17:11-12 in the revised version the Son is addressing the Father. Now listen to it
The Son says, “Thy name which thou (the Father) hast given me.” Answer that please, honorable opponent.
John 5:43, Jesus says plainly, I am come in my Father’s name. . .”
John 17:6 “I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me. . . ”
So Jesus is the name of the Father; Jesus is the name of the Holy
I John 14:26 “. . . The Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name . . .” Acts 16:7 in the revised version “The Spirit of Jesus. . .” Phillipians 1:19 in the King James version, “. . . the Spirit of Jesus Christ.”
And so Jesus is not only the name of the Son, Jesus is also according to these scriptures the name of the Father and Jesus is also, according to these scriptures, the name of the Holy Ghost,
Furthermore, Jesus happens to be the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. Last night we quoted Isaiah 9:6. That’s enough to give any trinitarian a squint. “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace.”
Mr. Toddy did not deny that this verse refers to Christ. He could not He dare not. Because it obviously does. Mr. Toddy could not deny that in this verse Christ is called the everlasting Father or, as the Hebrew puts it, the Father of Eternity.
But he tells us with most curious logic, that still doesn’t make him the Father. How many fathers are there in Toddy’s trinity? Person number one he says is the Father. Last night he admitted that Jesus is also called the Father. Thus he has two fathers in his trinity. Person one and person two.
Now listen to this. In Luke chapter one and verse 35 I read this: “And the angel answered and said (this is the angel talking to the virgin Mary). “And the angel answered and said. . .the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: there- fore, also that holy thing which shall be born af thee shall be called the Son of God.” Or in plain language, the Holy Ghost would be responsible for that miracle act of paternity in the virgin’s womb.” The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee. . . ” said the angel to the virgin, therefore or because the Holy Ghost is going to be a husband to you, Mary, “the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee. . . therefore that holy thing which shall be born to thee shall be called the son of God.”
Now we want Mr. Toddy to tell us which divine person is the father of the Son. We want him to tell us if Divine Person Number One, whom he calls the Father, is the father of the Son; or deny if he will that the Holy Ghost is stated here to be the father of the Son Which of these two — Divine Person Number One or Three, Mr. Toddy, is the father of the Son. Or do you believe He has two fathers? And that would be a curious situation indeed.
Mr. Toddy is on the horns of a dilemma. He knows, he maintains, that Divine Person Number One is the Father. Last night he agreed that Divine Person Number Two is the Father in a certain sense. And tonight by this scripture we make Him face the issue that the Holy Ghost was the father of the Son if he’s not careful he has three fathers in his trinity.
John 14, verse nine to prove that Jesus is the Father. “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. . .”
John 10:30 in the revised Version, “I (said Jesus) and the Father are one.” Mr. Toddy had another curious explanation to offer for this verse of scripture. Jesus said I and the Father are one. Mr. Toddy says, well one in what sense. Then quoting from the 17th chapter of John where Jesus prayed for the disciples that we all may be one. He maintains that that’s the sense in which the Father and the Son are one. The Father and the Son are not one in the absolute and indivisible sense. Oh no, he says, The Father and the Son are only one in the sense that church members are one. So help us. I’m glad that’s not true.
Mr. Toddy believes a man can be a member of the mystical body of Christ, fall from grace and end up in a devil’s hell. So the unity he had with the other church members was by no means unbreakable. That’s the sort of unity he says exists between the Father and Son. He can believe that if he chooses to. After reading the Bible I’m convinced that the unity between the Father and the Son is a mystical and indivisible unity. It’s an absolute unity. Jesus said I and the Father are one.
Jesus is also the Holy Ghost. Philippians 1:19 we read “. . . the Spirit of Jesus Christ.” How much plainer do you want it? Here it is in cold print “The Spirit of Jesus Christ.”
Acts 16:3 “The Spirit of Jesus Revised Version or a good margin.
John 20:22. “Jesus breathed on them and said, receive ye the Holy Ghost.” Now how you can make any difference of person between a man and his breath I don’t quite understand.
II Corinthians 3:17 says, “. . .the Lord. . .” (What Lord? There’s only one Lord. I Corinthians 8:6 there is only “. .one Lord Jesus Christ.”) Now I read in II Corinthians 3:17 “. . . the Lord is that Spirit.” Jesus is the Holy Ghost.
Now John fourteen, verse sixteen. John 14:16. We’re not scared of the gospel of John. Why that’s our stronghold, the gospel of John. We are not scared of any book or any chapter or any verse in God’s Holy Word. The greatest oneness volume I know is the volume of the scriptures.
“I Will pray the Father. . .” says Jesus, “he will give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.” Now who abides with us forever? Jesus said the Comforter would abide with us forever. But what do we read in Matthew 28:20? Jesus said, “. . .Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age.” That looks to me like Jesus is the Comforter.
All right. I will pray the Father and He will give you another Comforter, not another person, that He may abide with you forever. Verse 17, “Even” says Jesus talking to the apostles, “Even the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but,” says Jesus to the apostles concerning the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, “but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you,” that is, Jesus in person, Jesus said they don’t know the Spirit of Christ, speaking about the ungodly, but He says to His own, you know the Spirit because He dwelleth with you, Jesus in person, . . . and shall be in you.”
Who is in the hearts of true believers? Jesus said the Holy Ghost. Colossians 1:27 says, “Christ in you the hope of glory.” So the Holy Ghost is Christ.
John 14:18, Jesus says to the apostles concerning the Holy Ghost, “I will not leave you comfortless.” or as the margin says, I will not leave you orphans. . Or in homey language, I will not leave you without a father. “I will not leave you comfortless.” Without a father. I won’t leave you orphans, says Jesus. Plainly He was a father to the apostles. He said I, when I go away will not leave you fatherless or orphans. He says, “I will come to you.” The gospel of John an embarrassment to Jesus Name People? Never. It’s our joy, our glory and our delight (Amen).
Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul said, Colossians 2:9. “In Him (that is Jesus Christ) dwelleth all the fullness of the godhead bodily.” My honorable opponent says Jesus is in the godhead. The apostle Paul said the godhead is in Jesus. The very opposite to Mr. Toddy.
The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. By flashing little pictures on the screen about the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, Mr. Toddy is naive or simple enough to imagine that that constitutes overwhelming proof that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons. Hear this tonight. We believe in the Father, we believe in the Son and we believe in the Holy Ghost. But we deny that they are three persons. (Audience: Amen, Amen).
I asked Mr. Toddy last night to find me the word persons, P-e-r-s-o-n-s, persons, in the plural. I asked him to find for me the word “persons” in the scripture relative to Deity. He never did. Instead he came up with Hebrews one and in it verse three or four where we read, “Jesus is the express image of his person. . .” He found the word “person” in the singular. That’s not what we have been asking for. We have been asking for the word “persons” in the plural. Now find it and produce it if you can. We don’t believe it’s possible.
What then is the Father? The Father is deity. I Cor. 8:6, “But to us there is but one God, the Father.” The Father is deity.
Eph. 4:6 “one God and Father of all . . .” If the Father is deity, what then is the Son? The Son is humanity. Listen to this. Luke 1:35. An angel said this. I accept it that the angel is reliable. Luke 1:35. To the virgin Mary he said,”…that holy thing. . .” now mark it, watch it. The angels says to Mary, “. . .that holy thing which shall be born of thee. . .” or that holy thing born of thee “. . . shall be called the Son of God.” What is the Son of God according to an angel — and surely an elect angel knows. The Son of God is that holy thing which was born of Mary, the humanity.
Gal. 4:4 says, “. . . God sent forth his Son, made of a woman . . .” Notice that M-a-d-e. Made of a woman. Deity isn’t made of a woman but humanity is made of a woman. . . . God sent forth his son, made of a woman…” The Son made of a woman. That’s enough to prove that the Son is humanity.
And of course the Holy Ghost is the Comforter. It’s all in Jesus. He is God. He is deity. He is humanity. He is the Son. He is the Holy Ghost.
That’s why Jesus could say in Rev. 1:8 “I am the Almighty.” not one third of Almightiness but the sum total of Almightiness. “I am the Almighty.”
That’s why He could say in John 8:56, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” He gave himself the superb title of the burning bush Ex. 3:4, “I AM,” said Jesus. “I am the Almighty.”
John 1:1, 14. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh. . .” Mr. Toddy drew attention to the capitals but you don’t need to let that bother you. The capital “w” in Word, because he very well knows that the capitals are quite arbitrary.
All right then, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Who is Mr. Toddy’s God tonight? if he says the Father, then let’s read the verse in the light af that. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the Father, and the Word was the Father.” Does he like it that way? Oh he says, no my God is not the Father, my God is the whole trinity. All right, I’LL read it that way. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the trinity, and the Word was the trinity.” Does he like it that way any better?
No matter what you do with this verse you are driven to the conclusion that the Word was God. Logos, the Greek word for our English word “word” occurs going onto 200 times in the New Testament. Here’s an example, Matt. 8:16. He cast out demons or spirits with His word. When Jesus was here He cast out spirits with His word, with His Logos, Now could you make a difference between a man’s word and a man’s person? Can we distinguish the words of a man from the man who spoke them and thus make two persons? Can you take my word and distinguish my words from me and make two persons appear? That’s the question that has to be answered. Of course not. The Word was God. We want these questions answered this very night, Mr. Toddy.
Then Mr. Toddy talked about Elohim, which is the Hebrew word for the word translated God in our Bible. He said it’s a plural word. A plural word. Sure it’s a plural word. Plural of what? The scholars tell you it is the plural of majesty. He says “no,” Elohim translated in modern English is a plural word meaning more than two. It’s not the singular, it’s not the dual, it’s the plural meaning three at least.
Well, for his information, Baal, the god Baal, was called Elohim in Judges 6:31. Are there three Baals? Beelzebub, a name given to the devil, is called Elohim in II Kings 1:2, 16. Does he believe that Satan is a trinity? One ghost which came up in the home of the witch of Endor, one ghost, the ghost of Samuel; is called Elohim. Is Samuel the ghost a trinity? Moses himself was called Elohim in Ex. 7:1. Were there three Moses’. One golden calf which Aaron made to be worshipped is called Elohim in Ex. 32. Did the Israelites worship three calves? Of course not.
Now if I have enough time I would like to read you what Peloubet’s Bible dictionary says about the word Elohim. Remember this is a trinity scholar. “The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the godhead hardly now finds a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”
So Elohim does not help out. Why the Son of God himself is called Elohim in the 46th Psalm. Does that mean to say there are three Sons? Mr. Toddy, get off Elohim as quick as you can and don’t mention it again in your own interests for the duration of this debate. If it proves anything at all it proves too much for your good.
Jesus is the Supreme Deity in our estimation as we read the Word of God. He is the Father as to His divinity, He is the Son as to His humanity, and He is the Comforter in emanation in the hearts of His dear, elect people. I think quite a number of you agree with me. Amen? (Audience: Amen Amen)
Mr. Toddy’s Third Denial
Mr. Moderators, ladies and gentlemen: He took a vote of confidence that quite a number of his people agree with him, but I’ll assure you that not near as many as agreed with the worship of Diana in Ephesus when Paul was there. They agreed with him too, but they were wrong.
Now he spent about five minutes here trying to tell you people that Elohim was singular aud then picked up Peloubet’s book where Peloubet’ says the plural Elohim can hardly be said by some to refer to the godhead. But he said it was plural. And then he began to turn right around, after reading in Peloubet, where Peloubet said it was plural, and tried to prove again that it wasn’t plural. Now what do you know about that? Why, you would hardly take Peloubet anyway. I’m going to show you a little bit further now about that.
Last night there was quite a bit of hand clapping and carrying on when I was speaking. Now I want to tell the people tonight, you who do not belong to either church, that was not our people. Those people who did that do not belong to the Church of Christ. We don’t do that. We don’t have to do that. We don’t need that help. And so I’m asking all of you who are here who are not members of the church of either one of these churches, don’t lay that charge on us. We know how to behave when we go to church. We’re going to do that and we do not need any of that hand clapping, like they did when Elijah was arguing with the prophets of Baal: and like Paul was when he was preaching in Ephesus. The truth of God doesn’t need that. Let me repeat that. And the Church of Christ members don’t do that, don’t indulge in things like that.
Now before we get any further, he denied last night (you keep my time when they start laughing because I’m going to talk thirty minutes if it takes me two hours. So you can just laugh all you want to but I’ll get my thirty minutes just the same. We have a stop watch there and we’re going to see to that.)
Last night my worthy opponent made charge after charge that we did not believe in the deity. He said the so-called Church of Christ does not believe in the deity. I called his attention to that and he denied that he said it. He did say it. I played the tapes today and he said it numbers of times. He said it in his first speech, he also said it in his second speech. He said if they believe in the deity then why are we here? Don’t you remember that Mr. Magee? We’ll be calling you “Fibber Magee” if you don’t hold to the truth a little better than that. (Laughter) Yes, he said that last night, and he said it numbers of times. He knew it wasn’t so when he said it but he said it just the same.
Now we do believe in the deity of Christ. Of course, we do. If I didn’t believe that I wouldn’t be here tonight I have some questions I want to ask him, and I want you to answer them tonight too, as you gave me that admonition.
To whom was Christ praying when He said, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” To whom was He praying in the Garden of Gethsemane when He said, “If it be possible let this cup pass from me.” What was the spirit of which Jesus spoke in Luke 23:46 and who was the Father to Whom Jesus commended His spirit? Who raised Christ from the dead?
I’m going to give you a copy of these. What did Peter mean in Acts 2:23 When he said, “Jesus was by the right hand of God exalted.” and what did Stephen mean when he said that he saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God? Who was the Son and who was the God? What did Mark mean in Mark 16:19 when he said Jesus sat on the right hand of God?
Will you please answer these tonight? (MAGEE: I’d love to). We’d love to have you (Laughter)
All right He’s talked much about the Supreme Deity. And he talked about a person being hanged upon the horns of a dilemma. He said as I’ve driven him further than I ever did anyof his kind and I’ve met several of them but I’ve never seen one of them yet go to the extremes to say that the deities that he spoke of were the heathen deities, the gods that the people worshiped. You heard him say that.
Well now, he was giving you a sample of how to read things. Let’s read that in his proposition. His proposition says that Jesus is the Supreme Deity. When he analyzed that, defined his proposition, he said by supreme I mean He is above all others. Now does he think that we would deny that He is above a heathen deity? Why he didn’t have that in mind when he wrote that proposition. He just come to that trying to get out of a hard place. That wasn’t what he was thinking about. When he wrote others – that isn’t even good grammar. He is the Supreme Deity. He wasn’t thinking about heathen gods. Of course he knew nobody that had good sense would deny that and there isn’t any need for him to take that stand here tonight. And when he said that he meant that he is above all others, all other what? He has the adjective there but he doesn’t have the noun. Of course it was above all other deities. What sort of deities are we talking about? We’re talking about the godhead. We are not talking about heathen gods and he knows better than that and everybody here knows better than that. And he didn’t have that in mind when he was talking about it — when he wrote it. But he’s just come to that because he can’t — he knows I’ve pointed out the fact that if there is a supreme deity in the godhead there must be an inferior deity. He’s never thought of that before this discussion and he’ll never write another proposition like that when he gets away from here. That’s the last one he’ll ever write and if he would like to debate it again I invite him to write it again, put his name to it and come to Indianapolis and debate the same proposition there. I’LL give you my word of honor, I’LL assert at least, that he won’t do that. That he’ll never meet anybody else on that proposition because he has found out that the grammatical construction of his proposition makes him admit that there are more than one deity in the godhead. And if I said try to get around that, now he’s trying to push the godhead aside and bring in all the old Greek gods of Athens and all those heathen gods and put them in there. Now you know he isn’t going to put that off on us. No.
He didn’t mean that when he wrote it.
And he said last night, or said tonight, that it is evident to even a casual reader that there is but one God. Well if that’s true, why didn’t they know it before 1914? They never taught that before 1914 but they say that in 1914 they had a special revelation from God and that God told them, He made it manifest to them, that Jesus is the absolute Deity. That’s in their manual, that He is the absolute Deity. When did they learn that? Why they learned it in 1914, they say. But now they claim that it’s evident to even a casual reader. They must not have been casual readers before 1914. That’s when they learned it. If he denies it I have the little book over there on the table, their own manual. And in that it says that is when God gave them a revelation that Jesus Christ is the absolute Deity. They didn’t use the word Supreme. They knew more about writing than my opponent here does. And they used the word absolute. Now when did they learn it? They learned it, according to their manual, in 1914. They started this church in 1900. In January, 1900. They went on then for 14 years and God revealed it to them that there was only one in the godhead. Now if God did that why doesn’t He reveal it to everybody else?
I want to tell you, my friends, beware af the religious teacher who claims he has a revelation from God. I remember that the Catholic Church is full af such claims as that, and he had much to say about the Catholic last night. He wanted to class me with the Catholics. Well he’s with them on direct revelation. They claim direct revelations of every kind. You know how they claimed over, here at Portugal that the virgin Mary came down and told the girls over there all those fantastic tales, and yet my opponent claims the same thing. They got this by direct revelation.
Let me tell you, any of us here haven’t forgot about Little David’s claims of direct revelation. You want to hear some more about him? Tell us a little about Little David’s revelation. (MAGEE: Little David slew Goliath) (Audience Laughter)
I’m talking about . . . (Laughter and continued applause) Help him out, he needs it. Help him out I’m talking about Little David. . . (Continued laughter and applause) That’s the way they did the worship of Diana in Ephesus. Just keep it up. He needs it. Go ahead. That’s all right (Applause) Let’s have another one. Come on. (Applause) How about one more time? (Applause) Now that sounds good.
Now I’m going to tell you about the Little David. We mean the Little David that Hoekstra ran all over the country. You know Hoekstra, don’t you? Mr. Urshan knows him, anyway. Many of these people here know him. The revelation that Little David had. I’m not talking about David, King David. I’m talking about the one Hoekstra ran around with. He didn’t know anything about a King David. Now clap again. Let’s have another one. Come on. (Applause)
You know about David, don’t you? That Little David that they investigated in Indianapolis. Go to lawyer Dawson in Indianapolis. Ask him about him. He can tell you. There’s one of their revelations. They went all over the country with Little David, claiming all kinds of revelation. These people over there in Indianapolis know all about him. Even went as far away as England, maybe to Ireland. I don’t know. With that fantastical false tale that Little David had a revelation from heaven. Where is Little David now?
Write that down. Answer it tonight I want to know before I get back up again. Where’s Little David now? You beware of these people who claim revelation. The Mormon church claims a revelation. The Church of God claims a revelation. The Seventh Day Adventists are built upon direct revelation. But God doesn’t give you any direct revelation. When Jude wrote the letter of Jude he said, “Beloved when I gave all diligence to write unto you it was needful that I write unto you and exhort you that you contend earnestly for the faith that was once for all delivered unto the saints.” He isn’t giving them any direct revelation.
Yet they claim that in 1914 that’s the way they found all this out, that God gave them a revelation, and then he claims somebody is on the horns of a dilemma. That thing you’re dealing with is a mule? And then he thinks we’re afraid of that. Why no, we can tell him about him in Indianapolis. That’s the direct — how about what? I’m talking about some of your carrying on now. Some of your revelations, that’s what
I’m talking about now. I’m talking about your direct revelation. The way you claim you got this. They didn’t get it from the Bible. They claim they got it from a direct revelation and then they ran to the Bible to try to prove their direct revelation. That’s the reason they’re all mixed up like they are.
All right Deuteronomy 10:17, “God of gods. . .” Now does that sound like one? He’s up here to prove one and yet he keeps talking about what Toddy’s going to say. Why that said He’s the God of gods and I can give him one more. In the second chapter of Acts there Peter said that God had made that same Jesus whom ye crucified both Lord and Christ He had made him that He wasn’t that then. God made Him that.
And we go further. You can’t be God to a certain point, he said. And he says that you can’t be part God. Whoever said anything about being part God? Or whoever said anything about being God to a certain point? I told him that in my fathers family there’s four boys. We are brothers and we are all Toddys, and I don’t claim that I am a part Toddy and none of the rest of them claim that. He can see that. And yet when you say there are three in the godhead he wants to throw off on it and try to say that there would just be a part of a God. He would just be a third of a God. Oh that’s too silly for words. Nobody that thinks will fall for that.
Then he comes back to Hebrews 1:4 and he talks about the person. I’m going to read that to you again I read it two or three times last night. There Paul said, “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom he made heir af all things, by whom also he made the worlds; . . . and being the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word af his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand af the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. for unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again I will be to thee a Father and thou shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten. . and said let all the angels worship him. . But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever;”
Now who was saying all that? Was that the Son? No, it was the Father. “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he. . .” What’s the antecedent af the pronoun “he”? Not Jesus but the Father, God. He hath exalted. He hath made better than the angels. He hath said unto him thy throne O, God.
I ought to give my opponent a little lesson in pronouns now. He talks about persons. He wants person. Well, we have four groups of pronouns. There we have the personal pronoun, we have the adjective pronoun, we have the relative pronoun and we have the interrogative pronoun. If we are going to talk about a person we do not use those relative pronouns. We use the personal pronoun.
If he were to go into somebody’s home and ask the lady to play a piece on the piano and she would say I’m sorry but she is out of tune. Why she wouldn’t do that. She’d say it’s out of tune. And he doesn’t refer to persons as it. He refers to persons with a personal pronoun. We all know that. Those pronouns stand for nouns. When you find a personal pronoun it stands for a noun and some noun is an antecedent whether it’s stated or not. It may be understood. But there is an antecedent to that.
Now I am going to give you that in a reference to a Holy Spirit — to Jesus. I’m going to read to you now where in John 14:17. Jesus said, “I will pray the Father and he will give you another Comforter, even the Spirit of Truth which will abide with you forever.” Turn out the lights will you please. “He will abide with you forever. Now there it is. “And I will pray the Father. . .” I is the first person singular. I went over that time and again last night. I the first person singular. “. . .will pray. . .” Pray is a transitive verb. Father is the object of the verb “. . .and He shall give you another. . .” the adjective another makes it impossible to be the one they had. And my very worthy opponent tonight said the one they had was Jesus. Well, Jesus said I will pray the Father and He will give you another one. Now you want something on the godhead, sir, there it is right there. Just look straight at it. Read it. Copy it down on your cuff and take it home with you. That’s the Bible. That’s not what i say. That’s what God says. Yes, it sounds better. It’s the truth, it’s a fact. It’s better than anything you heard tonight and you’ve got it there.
“And I will pray the Father and He shall give you another Comforter. . .” and my most worthy opponent says the one he had at that time was Jesus. All right then Jesus said I’ll give you another one.
Let’s have the lights please. “And when he is come he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness and because I go to my Father and ye see me no more; of judgment because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many other things to say unto you but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he (not it) when he the Spirit of truth is come he will bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
Look up here, Mr. Magee. Do you know what a personal pronoun is? (MAGEE: I’d be afraid to guess, you just guess.) I’m afraid you wouldn’t. Do you know what a personal pronoun is? Do you know that it refers to a person? Do you know that. Do you know that? Do you know that a personal pronoun refers to a person? “And when he is come. . .” Who is he? What is he talking about? You’ve already said that Jesus was the Comforter then, but Jesus said I’ll give you another one. Now do you know what the word another means? Say it. Just say yes or no. Do you know? Of course he knows but he knows his doctrine won’t stand it. If he would tell you it would shoot his doctrine full of holes because “another” does not fit his doctrine.
Now there are your persons just as plain as you can get it. They want something else on the godhead so I John 5:7. And there John says, “There are three that bear record in heaven.” It doesn’t make any difference to me what Peloubet says, the Bible says three and I am willing to take the Bible. And I’ll put St. John up against Peloubet any day in the world you want it. There it is, right there. Now let him flash Peloubet up there by the side of him. You want to do that? Put Peloubet up there. All right.
So there are three. How many does it take to make three? Listen over here to me. Look up here. How many are three? Say tell me, how many are three? You see that over there? That says three. You know who said that? That wasn’t Peloubet. That was John, the apostle. And he said there are three that bear record in heave. Who are the three, John? Why the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. (Laughter and applause continued applause.) That tickled him to say that because that’s the truth. (Applause) If you folks just knew it you’re not worrying me nor intimidating me. You just keep on. I’m enjoying this and I’LL just let the people in this city see how you act. This isn’t the Church of Christ, so go ahead. Go right ahead and do that.
All right. These three are one. Lord, how are they one? John 17:20 Jesus said, “Father, neither pray I for these alone, but for all them which shall believe on me through their words; that they all may be one as thou art Father in me and I in thee, that they may be one in us, that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory thou gavest me I have given unto them that they may be one even as we are one.” That’s the truth. Yes. Yes, amen, that’s a fact. They’re going to be one even as we are one.
Now according to his doctrine, all the Christian people of the world have to be the great big man. When I was a little boy I read a story something like this: If all the trees in the world were one tree, and all the oceans in the world were one ocean and all the men in the world were one man and all the axes in the world were one axe; and that one big man took that one big axe and cut down that one big tree and it fell into that one big ocean what a great splash that would be.
Now then that’s exactly it, right there. They’re all one as we are one but we are not all one great big person. Why Jesus Christ said that a man would leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and they’ll both be one flesh. How is that? Explain that when you get up here. Do you think they just get to be one great big personality? Now that’s his doctrine.
Let’s have the lights, will you please. So you see how easy it is to meet that. The name that thou hast given me. Yes, God gave Jesus a name. But he had Him up here with several names. Now which one do you mean? Why he got up there and read Isa. 9:6 again. There’s about five in that Isaiah said, “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be Wonderful (one) Counselor (two), Mighty God (three), Everlasting Father (four), and prince of Peace (five).” Now which one are you going to take? You want that scripture any more? Can’t you count to five? And you say one. Why he has one verse there that has five names in it
And you end up that Toddy says so – and – so. Well, under the Jewish law every leader was a father. That’s the reason the Jews spoke of Abraham, Father Isaac and Father Jacob. And Jesus was a leader and thus the Jews referred to Him as a Father. But I must hasten on and get the rest of it answered.
I think I’ve got everything now that he has given us. We’ve answered it and given you that to show you how absurd that his teaching is. If there’s anything you know I haven’t answered, tell me. I’LL answer it. I’ll just answer anything in the world that — any question he can ask. Did he ask me that? Oh yes, I’m glad you mentioned that. Yeah, you better stop. You’re going to get yourself in trouble.
Who is Jesus’ father? Now he said the way I have that it was a peculiar way. Well now let me tell you. He says that I have Him with two fathers and that would be a peculiarity. Well it wouldn’t be any more peculiar than just having his own father. Did you ever hear of that? You’d say He’s His own father. Is that peculiar? It may not be peculiar but it’s downright nonsensical to talk about it. Now Jesus Christ is not His own father, no.
And then he said that Peloubet over there was a Christian scholar. Peloubet believed the three in the godhead. Do you take him into the church on that? Would you have Peloubet. . . Open your mouth and say something. You think he’s a Christian scholar. You were trying to soft soap these people then. He believed there were three in the godhead just like I do. Will you take him into the Pentecostal Church? Would you Mr. Potter? (MAGEE: You have to be born in.) Have to be born in. You couldn’t get him in any other way. Well you wouldn’t have him because he believes in three if he was born a thousand times, would you? He’s not going to say anything.
No, he wouldn’t have him and yet he’ll get up here and tell you people he’s a good Christian scholar. You know why he said that? He was wanting to sell him to you to try to make you believe he was a great man and he just demolished Toddy, and he believed the same thing as I do about it. So we see then how
that goes, that it wasn’t that, the way he told it.
Now then let’s go on a little bit with a little more negative arguments. I want to give you the baptism of Jesus. When Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River. Turn the lights out please.
Jesus there was in the water baptized. There was the voice in heaven. Here is the Son of God in the water and there is the dove, the spirit in the form of a dove. A voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” Last night he said the Son was the flesh. Let’s have the lights now.
He said the Son was the flesh. All right. Then he said that the Son died. I want to quote to you and I want him to notice in Matthew 25:31, there Jesus said, “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and all nations will be gathered together and he’ll separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
That’s the Son. Is that the flesh? Look up here. Is that the flesh? Is Matt. 25:31 the flesh? It’s the Son. You say the Son died. You said the Son was the flesh. You said the Son was a man, equal to humanity. But the Son was the One who sat upon the throne of His glory. Was that the flesh? Did you mean to say yes? Did you? He just does. . . he’s like the little boy that the calf kicked him in the mouth. He ran into the house and mother washed his mouth off and said, “Son, what did you say?” He said, “Nothing. There isn’t anything fit to say.”
And he doesn’t have anything fit to say. He’s got the Son and the flesh. That’s all there was to the Son. He was humanity, and yet the Son is going to sit upon the throne of his glory. That’s Matt. 25:31, in case somebody doesn’t know where it is. The Son of man shall sit upon the throne of his glory.
And then he went to John 1 and he said, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And he used the Greek Logos. In the beginning was the Logos. Yes that was the word. It was a capital. He said that’s a matter of opinion. No it isn’t. It isn’t a matter of opinion because you go down to the fourteenth verse and it tells what the Word was. “And the Word was made flesh. .” No, it isn’t a matter of opinion, Mr. Magee. “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. . . ” That was in the beginning with God. Was it God? Yes. But it wasn’t the whole godhead.
I’m going to give you a verse now in Matt. 12:31. There Jesus said, “All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: except the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; and he that speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven unto him: but (hear it) he that speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
Does that sound like they’re the same one? He that speaks a word against the Son of man it shall be forgiven him; but he that speaketh a word against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven Him in this world, neither in the world to come. Do you understand that, Mr. Magee? (MAGEE: Do you?) Yes sir, or I wouldn’t have read it.
Now we come to Mark the thirteenth chapter and the last verse and there Jesus talking about a day, He said, “And the day and the hour knoweth no man, neither the Son, but the Father.” There’s something the Father knew that the Son didn’t know. And yet he says they’re the same one. Look up here, Mr. Magee. How is it that a man can know something he doesn’t know? You know that? Look at me. I want you to look at me. How is that? (Laughter) Let’s give him a hand on that all you folks. How does it work? The Father knows something the Son doesn’t know. And yet he would have you people thing it’s all one. All of them in the same person. No, my friends.
In the ninth verse of Colossians 2: “And in him dwelleth all the fulness of the godhead (of the godhead modifies fulness) “In Him dwelleth all the fulness of the godhead. . .”
In Matthew 28:18. Jesus Christ said, “All authority has been given unto me. . .” Who gave it to him, Mr. Magee? You can’t have a gift without two persons. Now how much time do I have? Thank you.
Gordon Magee’s Fourth Affirmative
Honorable opponent, moderators, ladies and gentlemen.
Mr. Toddy, before this great congregation, I hereby accept your challenge to debate this selfsame proposition unaltered in the city of Indianapolis; that Jesus Christ is the Supreme Deity. Myself affirming and yourself denying. Accepted, sir?
Mr. Toddy opened up with saying I deny that Elohim was plural. He’ll know better when he listens to the tape recording. I acknowledge that Elohim is plural. Plural of what? Not plural of persons, and I gave several excellent reasons why it could not be plural of persons. It’s the plural of majesty. I do not deny that Elohim is plural. I know it is. Plural of majesty or the excellent plural as grammarians call it.
Now then in Zech. 12:10 I read that Elohim was to be pierced. Elohim, whom he says is three persons, was to be pierced. In Zech. 11 verses four through thirteen, I read that Elohim was to be betrayed and sold for thirty pieces of silver. Elohim, he says, is three person. In Zech. 14:5 I read that Elohim is returning again.
Does Mr. Toddy imagine that three persons were pierced or crucified? Does Mr. Toddy imagine that three persons were betrayed for thirty pieces of silver? And does Mr. Toddy imagine that three persons are coming back again? I wouldn’t think so. One person was pierced, one person was betrayed, one person is coming back again; and that one person is Jesus and the Bible terms Him Elohim.
Now we heard a lot, almost ten minutes worth about Little David. Personally, I don’t know Little David. I never had the honor of meeting him. Can I say without any disrespect whatever to Little David, that I am not interested in Little Now then, I have a number of questions from Mr. Toddy. To whom was Christ praying when he said, “My God, my God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” Would he kindly tell us? Will he have the effrontery to tell us that Divine Person Number Two, God Number Two, prayed to God Number One? Why does a man pray? When he needs help. Isn’t that right? What help could Divine Person Number One give to Divine Person Number Two if they are co-equal? Couldn’t Divine Person Number Two help himself? Mr. Toddy has the peculiar spectacle of one God praying to another God. When one God prays to another God he un-gods himself.
Who raised Jesus from the dead? He wants to know. Really want to know? You want to know who raised Jesus from the dead? John 2:19, Jesus said, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”
Jesus at the right hand of God. Hmm? Well, since that was mentioned last night and since it was mentioned again tonight, obviously Mr. Toddy imagines that somehow or other this is something we are trying to evade. Mr. Toddy, let me tell you something. My only serious opponent here tonight is the clock.
All right, let’s read about it. The right hand of God. What does it mean? Acts 7:56. “And he (that is Stephen) said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” The dying martyr said I see the heavens opened and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. I ask Mr. Toddy tonight, how many did Stephen see? When he looked up into the open heavens and said, “I see the Son of man standing on the right hand of God,” how many did he see? I’LL give my answer. He saw one. And for this reason, John 1:18 says, “No man (and that includes Stephen) no man hath seen God at any time.” And that includes the time of Stephen’s stoning and martyrdom. I Tim. 6:16 I read that our God is such that no man hath seen Him nor can see Him. The Old Testament saints made claim to see God. Of course we know they witnessed theophanies. Mr. Toddy, I hope, knows about that.
Now there’s a reason why no man hath seen God at any time. There’s a reason why no man hath seen God nor can see God. And here it is. Col. 1:15 talks about the invisible God. I Tim. 1:17 talks about the king who is invisible. Heb. 11:27 talks about him who is invisible and who Moses couldn’t see with the naked eye. Three times we are told that God is invisible. That’s why no man hath seen God at any time nor can see God. Will Mr. Toddy tell us that Stephen looked up into heaven and saw something invisible? I think I told some of you folk about a visit of mine to a certain cave in the state of Colorado. The guide was taking us through the cave. He was a very witty fellow and I enjoyed his humor. The guide said to us in the party, “Ladies and gentlemen, on my right hand side is a little spring well.” I didn’t pay much attention to that. Then the guide said, “And in the spring well there are several invisible fish,” and a number of us ran over and looked in the well. Until we realized that we had been well and truly sucked in. Imagine the spectacle of an Irishman trying to see an invisible fish! You can’t see an invisible fish. No more can you see an invisible God!
How many did Stephen see? One! God as to His essence is invisible. Then what does it mean, “He saw the Son of man at the right hand of God.” What does the Bible mean by the expression “the right hand of God”? There’s nothing literal about it.
Exo. 15:6, after God had scooped the waters of the Red Sea upon the flower of Egypt and drowned Pharaoh and his host, Moses and the Israelite on the safe side of the Red Sea, took up a song. Exo. 15:6, Listen to what they say. “Thy right hand, O Jehovah, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Jehovah, hath dashed in piece the enemy.”
What did those Israelites see that day? They saw the waters falling in upon the Egyptians by the power of God. That’s what they saw. But they described it as the right hand of God. In other words, what they saw was a manifestation of divine power and glory. And they described that as the right hand of God.
Stephen looked up into heaven and saw Jesus at the right hand of God. In the place of power and in the place of glory. And the Jews well understood what he meant if Mr. Toddy doesn’t. They couldn’t stand what to them was blasphemy. They stopped their ears. They gnashed their teeth and they stoned that man to death.
As that man, Stephen, was sinking down in death, listen to him. Acts 7:59 Stephen is seen to be calling upon God. Listen to him . . “They stoned Stephen, calling upon God. . .” Listen Stephen calls upon a God and now he names his God. “. . .they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” As far as Stephen was concerned, Jesus was God. Convinced he was God even after having seen that vision. He didn’t see Jesus along side of another. He saw Jesus in the place of glory and power and majesty.
My friend, Mr. Toddy said, what name? We make a lot about the name. What name? Is it Wonderful? Is it Counsellor? Is it Mighty God? Is it Everlasting Father? Is it prince of Peace? There’s five of them. He said, is that the name?
No , Mr. Toddy, the name is revealed in Phil. 2:10. Here it is, “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow. . , and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Then he talks about the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. He says, and the Bible says so as far as that’s concerned, that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven and that’s so. Then he adds, blasphemy against the Son will be forgiven. Then he asks does that sound like the Spirit and the Son are the same? The one?
Let me ask him a question. Does that sound like the Spirit and the Son are co-equal? If the Spirit and the Son are co-equal as he says, then blasphemy against the Son would be equally impardonable as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
Mr. Toddy, these questions of yours are like boomerangs. They’ll come back and hit the one who threw them.
Then he says the Son doesn’t know the time of the coming, and sure enough we can read that in the Bible. But he said the Father knows the time of coming. Does that look like the Father and the Son are one? I turn it back on him and ask him this. Does that look like the Father and the Son are co-equal? His second proposition, he says the Father and the Son are co-equal. Yet here we are confronted with the Father knowing something the Son does not know, proving they’re not equal in knowledge.
He comes to John 14 and the word “another”. Let’s look at John 14:16-18. Let’s read it again, only we add another verse which was conspicuous by its absence on the screen. It’s not there. You see it’s not there. That screen misses more than it hits, against mechanical music. I’m against mechanical debates.
John 14:16-18. Jesus said, “. . .I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, (a great to-do was made about the word “another”. My friend, all you’ve got to do is keep reading.) Verse 18. “I will not leave you comfortless: (says Jesus) I will come to you.”
Now I ask you. Do you know the meaning of a pronoun? A personal pronoun? If Jesus didn’t promise to come as the Comforter, you tell us what it’s all about.
Last night there was a lot of talk about the two witnesses in John chapter eight. John 8. Oh, God help us. Imagine anybody trying to prove from John chapter eight of all places that Jesus is not Supreme Deity! Do you know what Jesus said in John chapter eight and verse fifty-eight. He said, “Before Abraham was, I am.” That has been unanswered now. Perhaps Mr. Toddy will try to answer it when he takes the floor.
Verse twelve of the same chapter, John chapter eight, Jesus said, “… I am the light of the world”. “I am the light of the world,” says Jesus. “I am the light of the world.”
Psalm 27:1 says, “Jehovah is my light.” Jesus knew that the old Bible said, “Jehovah is my light,” but He didn’t hesitate to say, “I am the light of the world.”
In Isa. 60:19 I read, “The sun shall be no more thy light by day: neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but Jehovah shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.” Verse 20. “Jehovah shall be thine everlasting light. . . ” The Bible plainly reveals that Jehovah Elohim is the light; yet Jesus in John eight said, “I am the light . .” Not we are the light. I am the light. If three persons constitute the light, what does Jesus mean saying, I (the singular number) am the light. Is Jesus a title stealer? By no means. He is the I AM, and He is the light.
All right. In that very chapter, which in the most forceful language declares the Supreme Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, he tries to find evidence to down-grade Jesus and make Him an equal with two other supposed gods. Verse 16. “And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone,” What did Jesus mean when He said, “I am not alone”? He meant that he was God and man. They saw him as a man. They were in danger of believing that that’s all there was to Him. A man. But Jesus was more than a man. He was God and man. And so He confessed, I, that is as a man, am not alone.
As we read in Zechariah 13:7, “. . . the man . . .” not the Divine Person but “. . .the man that is my fellow (or my associate) saith Jehovah of hosts.” Get this. In Christ. Jehovah God (that is Deity) and man (the flesh) associate. In Christ there was Jehovah and the man was His fellow, and His fellow was a man, not another Divine person.
The Apostle Paul meditated upon this great wonder and in I Timothy 3:16 he was compelled to exclaim, “Great is the mystery of godliness. God was manifested in the flesh. . .” And so Jesus could say, as a man, “I am not alone.” “And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.”
I remind him verse 17 says “two men.” If he overworks verse 17 I’ll repeat it says “two men”. Now will he say that not only was the Son a man? We dare him to say two men. We dare him to say two persons because Jesus didn’t say two persons. If he says two witnesses then we agree for there were two witnesses according to Hebrew 1:1-2. “God who at sundry times and in devers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son. .” Witness number one — the Father and the prophets. Witness number two — the Son himself. Two witnesses; but not two men neither two persons.
We turn to the second epistle of Corinthians. Corinthians the second epistle and the 13th chapter. The Apostle Paul quotes this very verse that Jesus uses. In your law the testimony of two men is true. Now in
the 13 chapter of II Cor. the first verse, “This is the third time
(says Paul) I am coming to you.” He had visited the Corinthians once.
The same Paul visited the Corinthians again. And now he was preparing
to visit them a third time. “This is the third time that I am coming
to you,” says Paul to the Corinthians. “In the mouth of two or three
witnesses shall every word be established.” “I told you before, and
foretell you, as if I were present (or as when I was present) the
second time; and being absent now I write…”
The Apostle Paul says to the Corinthians, I visited you once, twice and I am coming a third time; and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” There is food for thought. Paul was not two persons, nor three persons. He was one person and one person only.
Mr Toddy gave us chart number eight. John 5:37. This is how it reads: “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.” “And (says the Son) the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.” Now Mr. Toddy said last night and I quote his exact words. “And” is the coordinate conjunction and it means “plus”. “And” is the coordinate conjunction and it means “plus”. Thus, he says, Christ and the Father are two persons because John 5:37 says, “And the Father himself, which hath sent me hath borne witness of me.” It’s the little word “and”, he says, which means “plus.”
“All right Let’s test it. Col. 2:2. Second half of the verse. The apostle is talking about the mystery of God. There’s number one, if we’re going to start to count. He’s found three Gods by his peculiar method, in the Bible. Let’s see how many I can find using the same strange method. Col. 2:2. “The mystery of God (number one), and (which he says is a coordinate conjunction meaning “plus”) of the Father (now there are two), and (that’s the coordinate conjunction meaning “plus”) of Christ (there’s three) — God and the Father and Christ — and we haven’t even mentioned the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost would make four and for good measure in Rev. 4:5 we read about the seven spirits of God and that makes eleven. Start counting that way and you can multiply your gods very quickly.”
Chart number ten of Mr. Toddy’s. Gen. 3:22. “And the Lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. . .” Us, says Toddy, is the trinity. Well who were the “us”? What’s the truth? God said the man has become as one of us. Who were the “us”? Well the us, obviously , were those who were present. If I say “us” tonight, I mean those who are present. So when God said the man is become as one of us He meant those who were present.
Who were present? Verse 24 tell us the cherubims. The cherubims. A certain rank of angels. When Adam fell God said man has become as one of us, that’s Jehovah and the angels. In what respect? In as much as he now knew good and evil. The angels knew good and evil. The cherubims knew good and evil before Adam did. While Adam was innocent he wasn’t like the angels or Jehovah in as much as he did not know good and evil. Once he fell God could say to the cherubim, the man is become as one of us.
The same is repeated in Isa. 6:1-8. “In the year that King Uzziah died I saw also Jehovah. . .” If You make a note of John 12:41 you’ll read this: “These things said Esaias, when he saw his (Christ’s) glory, and spake of him.” (Jesus).
“In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also Jehovah . . .” says the prophet. He saw Jesus. Verse two. “Above it (that’s Jehovah’s throne) stood the seraphim. . . ” Again the angels. All right. Present in the temple that day was Jehovah and His angels. Now verse eight: “Also I heard the voice of the Lord (that is Jehovah) saying, Whom shall I send, (singular number; Jehovah speaking of Himself in the singular number. Jehovah said,) Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Referring to the angels because as Peter said angels desire to look into this matter. “Us”, Mr. Toddy, in these passages refers if you please, not to the trinity, but to God and to the angels.
Now would you please without fail, answer me something that I have been waiting and which no doubt a considerable number this congregation have been waiting to hear. I have mentioned it three times in this debate. Rev. 1:8. Jesus said, “I am. . .the Almighty.” Touch on that, Mr. Toddy. Tell us how Jesus can be the Almighty and still, according to you, only be a co-equal member of an alleged heavenly trinity. Jesus said, “I am . . . the Almighty.”
John 3:56 Jesus said, “Before Abraham was I am.” I would like to hear those clear declarations, which are clear beyond equivocation or ambiguity. I’d like to hear and see them met. Explain to me how Jesus can simply be a co-equal person in a trinity, co-equal with two others, between the three of them sharing infinity, eternality and power. Explain to me how that can be and yet that same Jesus can say. “I am . . the Almighty.” It sounds to me like Jesus believed He was the fulness of the Godhead. It sounds to me like Jesus believed He was the Father and He was the Son and He was the Holy Ghost. If He wasn’t fully and supremely God, then explain to us how He could make such a tremendous and such a sweeping claim and declaration “I am. . .the Almighty.” Before Abraham was I am.”
Here’s another question which Mr. Toddy has scrupulously avoided. I don’t blame him. If I were in his shoes I too would avoid such difficult verses.
Let me tell you something. In Bible study make this a rule to understand the obscure passages of scripture in the light of the clearer passages. There may be passages in the Bible you don’t fully understand about this Godhead, but here I’m quoting two that nobody could misunderstand unless willfully. Jesus said, “I am the Almighty.” Jesus said, “I am the I AM.” Great eternal wonder.
Nobody need have any doubts about the Supreme Deity of Jesus. Those two verses alone, by themselves, no matter what else you fail to understand, should be enough to convince your heart. When you get to heaven how many will you see, Mr. Toddy? Will you see three? Will you see two? Or will you see one? If
you’re going to see three, then name them to us tonight When I get to heaven I expect to see one. Jesus only. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
Supposing he’s right and I’m wrong, and I make it to heaven and I find there are three there. I know it’s an absurdity, still I’d be able to say, “Jesus, you said, I am the Almighty.” Jesus you said, “Before Abraham was, I am.” Reverently Jesus, can you blame me for only expecting to find you here?”
The Almighty and the I AM.
Mr. Toddy’s Fourth Rebuttal
Mr. Moderators, ladies and gentlemen. It’s certainly a pleasure for me to come tonight and answer that conglomeration of a speech that you’ve just heard my worthy opponent make. If he isn’t mixed up, I’ve never in my life seen a man mixed up. He’s so mixed up that he thinks a man can be his own father. And yet he claims to have a direct revelation from God. What did he say about that revelation? Why nothing.
But I want you to adhere to his admonition in the last there. He said that in studying the Bible to interpret obscure passages by plain positive statements. Give me the chart please that says there are three that bear record in heaven. I want you to see that while he’s talking about that. If that isn’t a plain, positive (turn out the lights please). If that isn’t a plain positive statement I want somebody to tell me how you’d write one. “There are three. . .” Is that positive, Mr. Magee? “There are three.” Is that positive? “. . .the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost. . .” Is that positive. It even tells who they are. They’re the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. (Audience laughter.) Now if that isn’t a positive statement, I don’t know how to write one. And he said — start in helping him please. Just laugh it out now and then be quiet. Let’s have a big laugh. Just as soon as I get up you begin to try to take care of him. Now if you want to laugh, just go ahead. Clap your hands. Holler hallelujah, anything you want to. Just go right ahead. Give you the time. Then when you’ve finished I’m going to talk. I don’t mind hearing you laugh I don’t mind hearing you say amen. I don’t care if you clap your hands till there’s blisters on them. It’s not going to intimidate me. Go ahead and say anything you want to. Laugh as long as you want to. Then when you get done laughing look at the positive statement there on the board. Now interpret that, will you?
Is that an obscure passage? Why a three year old child can understand what that means. Certainly they can. “There are three. . .” Anybody knows what that means. One, two, three. Does it mean one? No. It means one, two, three. “There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost” Will you let me have the lights now please.
I thank him for giving us that good information That’s really worth something. If you people will just adhere to that you’ll come out of the fog of all this things that has been talking.
Now he got that revelation, they did, in 1914, I’m not misrepresenting. I have it in the book right over there. They said that the Pentecostal church started in 1900. It went on until 1914 and they believed that there were three in the Godhead. But in 1914 God sent them a direct revelation and told them that it wasn’t so. Yes. Ellen G. White claims that too. Ellen G. White taught until 1846 that Sunday was the day to keep, but she said that God snatched her up and took her to heaven and showed her that that was wrong. She ought to keep Saturday.
They say, they taught until 1914 that there were three in the Godhead, but along the last few years ago Little David came along and claimed God snatched him up into heaven and kept him five hours and told him a whole big lot of stuff. Now you ought to be ashamed of trying to put stuff like that off on intelligent people. Why we don’t believe a word of it. Aren’t you ashamed of it? Mr. Urshan there knows about Little David and I’m persuaded you do too. This thing wasn’t done in a corner. All of them knew about it. Mr. Potter knows about him. Claimed he went to heaven. Told all those unmitigated falsehoods and put them off on the people, and they say that they got a direct revelation. Where is Little David now? What happened to Hoekstra about Little David? You people, you’re not covering stuff up with us. We know all about it. I was right there. Associated and he had been in Hoekstra’s home. I knew about it. I knew what he was going to get into when he started off. You know about Little David’s home in Florida. you know about all that stuff. You may have been in Ireland then but you ought to have heard about it.
Yes, we know about those direct revelations. Let me tell you, my friend, anybody comes to you claiming God said so and so, if it isn’t written in this Bible don’t you believe it. The Bible says to the law and to the testimony, if any speak otherwise the Lord’s word’s not inhim.
Yeah, let’s come back to the Bible. Quit talking about these direct revelations. They don’t mean the snap of your finger. If you can’t read it in God’s Word. God said that in us you might learn not to go beyond the things that are written I Cor. 4:6. Don’t go beyond the things that are written. Peter said if any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God. You take the Catholic avenue that God speaks to you separate and apart from His Word. Shame on you, Mr. Magee. Not a word of truth in it
Now that’s where they got all this. Now they come around and say, oh just a casual reader can see that. Why didn’t you folks read casually before 1914? Take your stand over by the side of the Catholic priest. They claim the same thing you do.
Now you notice he didn’t answer my questions. I asked him seven and he tried to answer three. He just completely slipped over the others. And when I asked him who was Christ praying to when He said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” And he didn’t answer. He tried to make fun of it — would you think one God’s praying to another? That’s not what I asked. I asked you who? Then you turned around and asked me who. I was asking that to you to answer.
Then he comes up that I didn’t answer before Abraham was I am. Jesus there was talking about Abraham longed to see his day and he say it not. Those Pharisees said, why you’re not yet fifty years old. Did you see Abraham? And Jesus said, “Before Abraham was I am.” And he thinks that’s the un-get-overable question. Why it’s the same thing as John 1 when John said, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
That’s what Jesus meant. He meant I was here before Abraham, and he thinks that’s hard to answer. Why I’ve gone over that over and over again just didn’t quote that particular verse, but its all answered in John the first chapter. And if you think I’ve got anything to put over I’ll give you two minutes right now to answer that. Do you want it? I want to be fair about this thing. I’m not holding back anything. Come on up here. Now hold his time. Give him two minutes and let him answer that.
Magee: Mr. Toddy wanted to know why I didn’t read the Bible casually before 1914. (Toddy: that’s not the question.) (Magee; Did he expect me to read before I was born?
If you weren’t born in 1914 that hair came off you head mighty quick. (Laughter) He lost that hair mighty quick somebody told me one time to never argue with a fellow that’s got his head so hard it won’t grow hair. (Laughter)
Now that wasn’t what I gave you the time to answer. I have you the time if you thought I was putting something over on you by not quoting the verse, “Before Abraham was I am.” And I was going to give you the time and show you I’m not putting anything over on anybody. I’m here for the truth. I’ll let him ask me any question in the wide, wide world he wants to. Maybe I can’t answer it but I’m not afraid for him to ask it. You want to ask one? Do you want to ask one?
Magee: There are two I have already asked. “Before Abraham was I am,” and “I am the Almighty.”
Toddy: “I am the Almighty.” Of course, He was the Almighty. He thinks because Jesus was the Almighty that Jesus had to be the only one. Jesus said, “All power has been given unto me in heaven and on earth.” He’s got it all. That doesn’t mean the Father doesn’t have some too. (Audience Laughter)
Laugh again. Lets have another one. Clap your hands a little.
Now let me illustrate that again. We go over here to the police headquarters. The chief tells on of the policeman to go out and arrest a man. He says, “What authority do I have?” The chief of police says, “You have all the authority in the city of Martinsville.” Now what does that mean? Does that mean the chief resigned? He didn’t have any? You know better than that. You’re trying to put that over on these people. That’s like you tried to put Little David. You want to say something now? You know better than that.
You know when he gives all the authority to a policeman to go out that the chief doesn’t resign. He has as much as that man he sent out. Don’t you know that? Better go back to Ireland if you haven’t learned that much.
Magee: May I have Permission to talk.
Toddy : yes, you can talk. Hold my time.
Magee: Jesus did not say I have all the power of the Almighty. Jesus said, “I am the Almighty.” (Audience Applause)
Toddy : You’d better laugh now. You’re going to need it. He said Jesus didn’t say I have all the power of the Almighty. Jesus said I have all power in heaven and on earth. Was the Almighty in heaven? You break your neck every time you get up, You want to get up again? (Magee: Sure) You want to get up again?
Now where is the Almighty? Jesus said all power in heaven and in earth is given unto me. Now if that doesn’t take in the Almighty where would you go? He said He had it all. All where? All in heaven. Is that all? No. All on earth I’ve got it all, everywhere. Didn’t you . . . He didn’t say that? He didn’t say that? Read Matt. 28:18. Does that say what I said?
Magee: Jesus said, “I am the Almighty.” (Toddy: yes, He is the Almighty. Nobody denies that.)
Magee: It sounds like you are.
Toddy: Well it sounds like it to you but not to other people. (Laughter)
Yes sir. Now he sees it. And then when he came to this one, to whom was he praying in the Garden of Gethsemane, he didn’t answer that. He came to this one. What was the Spirit of which Jesus spoke in Luke 23:46 and who was the Father to whom Jesus commended His spirit? He left that one out. And then we got down to Who raised Him from the dead? And he went over to where Jesus said, See this temple? Tear it down and I’LL raise it up in three days. He said Jesus raised Himself from the dead.
And I Peter 3:18. There the Bible says, “. . . being Put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. ” That’s what Peter says about it.
Well he didn’t answer the next one. What did Peter mean in Acts 2:33 when he said Jesus was by the right hand of God? He talked about going down somewhere and somebody said there were some invisible fish in that pool and he just ran over and tried to see them . Now I can understand that. I can imagine him doing that. Any man who thinks a man can be his own father is apt to do that. We’re not surprised Mr. Magee. We’re not surprised. Wouldn’t have been surprised if you’d jumped in.
And then he talked about Stephen and the right hand of God. He said what did Toddy think he saw? It wasn’t what Toddy thinks he saw. I asked you what did he see and you wouldn’t tell me. I’LL just quote you the verse. Stephen said, And behold the heavens were opened and I saw (s-a-w) — and I saw the son of man standing at the right hand of God. He said he didn’t see it for no man’s ever seen the Lord. Now that’s the way he answered that. He flatly said to the people — he didn’t tell the truth.
But he’s been quoting all the time that somebody did see the Lord. Why you know all last night and tonight too, when Jesus said, Philip, have I been so long time with you and you haven’t seen the Father? You that’s seen me have seen the Father. Now you come right up here and say nobody ever saw him. Talk about a dilemma. Oh you’re hung on one. No man has seen God. But he said that’s not literal.
Now he comes on over and he accepts my challenge. Well, I’ve already got the proposition signed. I’ll just pass it over to him and let him have it. Bring it up here, Brother Rogers. Take it over there to him, will you please. And so there you have the proposition already signed by me. Then we’ll let him put exactly the same thing that I said he wouldn’t sign.
Now were going to talk a little more about Elohim. He just simply can’t tell what I say. He talks about Toddy says this and Toddy said that, and he said Toddy said Elohim means three persons. Now I never said any such a thing Mr. Magee. I said Elohim was plural. I didn’t say how many. I said Elohim was plural. He said Toddy says it means three persons. Why it could mean three persons, it could mean two or it could mean a thousand. It just could. That’s all there is to that noun Elohim. It’s plural and you have to determine how many by the rest of the scripture.
And then he says that Isaiah 9:6 is not the name. Well he’s been telling us all the time it was the name. What did you use it then for, Mr. Magee? If it wasn’t the name what did you use it for? What was it then?
(Magee: To prove that Jesus is the Father of Eternity, the Everlasting Father.)
Toddy: Well you didn’t have to prove that. Nobody ever denied that.
(Magee: You believe He was the Father?)
Toddy: Yes I believe He’s the Father, just like Isa. 9:6 says. (Laughter) Laugh a little bit. (Continued laughter) Laugh. Why nobody denied that. Haven’t you heard me stand here time and againand say that Abraham was a father, that all leaders of the Jewish nation were fathers. Didn’t you hear me say that? Look at me. Don’t talk to him. Didn’t I say that, Mr. Urshan? Didn’t I say that? All Jewish leaders were fathers. You heard me say that two or three times. You didn’t hear it. Yes he was a father. He was the everlasting Father. But the Jews today pray and thank God for the father Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Course that’s right.
Well, now he talks about equal. He’s debated my proposition tomorrow night both nights. He can’t do anything with this and he tries to get into mine. He wants to know how that I’m going to make Jesus equal with God. Well I’m going to let God do that. I’m not worried about it at all. I know what I’m going to do and tomorrow night we’ll show him.
But now he talks about God being under the other God. Well, I think that’s easy to see. Now he’s been saying that the Son is the flesh, What did he do with Matt 25:31? You talk about deliberately letting things alone — you deliberately left that alone.
There it says, “And when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory, and all nations shall be gathered before him.” Who’ll be doing that Mr. Magee? Tell us. Who’ll be sitting upon the throne of his glory? The Bible says the Son will be sitting up there. You say the Son is flesh, all humanity. Do you still say that? “And the flesh will be sitting upon the throne of his glory.
And when Stephen said I saw the Son of man standing at the right hand of God, the flesh was standing at the right hand of God. And the Bible definitely says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Hold my time. Let him talk some more.
Magee: The Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Do I need to point out to Mr. Toddy that the Bible makes it clear that the Son in heaven is present as to His glorified humanity, — glorified, yes; and flesh, yes — but without blood! He poured out His blood on the cross. He’s not there as to flesh and blood.- I never said it! – but He is there as to the body of His glorified humanity. And in the body of His glorified humanity He’s returning as Zechariah said, “They will look upon him whom they have pierced.” and they’ll ask of the meaning of the prints in His hands and he’ll say these are they with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Toddy: (laughing) Well, I’ve had a lot of debates in my life but I’ve never had one I’ve enjoyed any more than this one. I’ve never seen a man as tangled up flesh and blood! (Audience laughter) Laugh a little bit. Laugh. Let’s have a big hearty laugh. Now I’m going to show you something. You’d better laugh before I say this. You might not feel like it afterwards.
All right. He said, yes, the Bible says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom af heaven but they took all Christ’s blood out and put the flesh in. Now that’s his idea. Isn’t that foolish? That’s so ridiculously absurd it’s absurdly ridiculous. Flesh and blood can’t go there but flesh can go there. If you drain all the blood out of a man he can go there. I’d be ashamed of that.
What kind of a plain positive passage did you use to interpret that by? You certainly need one. You want to help him? You want to help him? Just come right along. We don’t care. Nobody her tonight but us. You want to help him why you just come right along.
Now he says he’s against mechanical debates. I think he could just say I’m against debates, left mechanical out, or at least he will be when he gets done with this. He doesn’t want it on the board. That’s what he calls a mechanical debate. It’s like the Catholic church during the dark ages. He doesn’t want the people to see the Bible. Chain the Bible and keep the people from seeing it. Toddy wants to put it up there where they’ll see it. I want them to see it
And then that awful blunder that he made over in Genesis 3:22 when God said the man has become as one of us. Who was the”us”? Why he said that was the cherubims that God was talking to. Well, let’s give him another one now. In the first chapter of Genesis God said, “Let us make man. . . ” Let us make him in our own image. Is that the image of the cherubim or the image af God? Want to get up? I believe you need to get up again. (MAGEE : You’ll get it.)
I’LL get it, he says. Yes, I’LL get it. Just like I’m getting it tonight. Now don’t you see that? He tries to get out – he blunders, he twists the Bible around, he said that meant the
cherubims. God called up a group of cherubims and he said, now
cherubims, that man down there has become as one of us. Which one was it, a cherubim or a god? Which one was it? He said one of us. Do you think you know which one? Have you got a direct revelation? Tell us which one. Was it a cherubim or a god? He has become as one of us. Yes, but when he made him in his own image what does that mean? You didn’t know that was there, did you? A false teacher never sees a foot in front of his nose.
Now when he made the “us” over there mean God talking to cherubims, then God made him in the likeness of what? In his image — talk to me, don’t talk to him. I want to hear you talk too. Turn around here. I want to see you when you talk.
You see what he’s gotten into now.
Now he says Jesus said I am the light. Yes, Jesus said while I am in the world I am the light of the world, but he said when he left he said you are the light, talking to the people. He didn’t read all that to you. He just reads what he wants to.
Now he says, who are his deities. I want the chart on – the number one chart of, John 8:16, and turn the lights out please. Now did you hear him garble that? “And yet if I judge, my judgement is true; for I am not alone.” The only difference in what God said in the garden of Eden and the devil was that little “not” the only difference in what Jesus Christ said and what Mr. Magee is that little “not”. Mr. Magee says He is alone; God said I am not alone. I am not alone but my father that sent me. And then he also said it is written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. There’s two. T-W-0. Jesus said that. M-e-n. Men. Jesus said that. That’s not what I’m saying. That’s the reason he doesn’t like mechanical debates. And then what is that? I am one–how many are you, Jesus? I am one. “That bear witness of myself and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.” I am one plus another one. That makes two. And if Jesus Christ didn’t mean there were two He made a false argument, based upon the premise of the Old Testament, that there is written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. So I am telling you the truth because there are two of us saying it. I’m saying it and the Father’s saying it. Let me tell you, my friends, prejudice is a dangerous thing. If you let prejudice keep you from seeing that, and that’s the
only thing that can. Profound ignorance and prejudice, and I know you people are not ignorant. Now you can see that. It says there are two that bear record.
All right. Now I want the chart that says there are three that bear record in heaven. We’ve got the two here, now we’re going to get the spirit. Give me that chart please. It says, “There are three that bear record in heaven; the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.”
Three that bear record in heaven. Now isn’t that easy to understand? “For there are three that bear record in heaven..? Who are they, Lord? …”the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.” Just as a man and his wife are one. Just as Christians are one.
Now I want number sis, I believe that’s the chart of the mediator. There it is. “There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.” God upon the throne. Jesus said He’s between God and the sinner and he’s making intercession for us. And in John the second chapter and the first verse there Jesus Christ said, “These things write I unto you, little children, that ye sin not, but if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” The word advocate means a lawyer that stands between the offended and the offender and pleads the case of the offender.
All right, Now we go to the verse where he says and I will pray the Father. I want that one. “I will pray the Father and He will give you another Comforter…? Here we have it. “I will pray the Father. . .” I is the pronoun and the first person singular. “I will pray…” Pray is a transitive verb. “I will pray the Father…” Father is the object of the verb. “. . . and he.” He is a personal pronoun “…the Father will give you another Comforter . .” The adjective “another” makes it impossible to be the one they had then, and Jesus was the one they had then. And so He says I will give you another Comforter. Now that doesn’t need anyone to interpret that. That’s plain, positive and anybody can understand that. Jesus said, “I am going away. Let not your hearts be troubled, ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions. If it were not so I would have told you. And I go and prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you I will come again. . and whither I go thou knowest and the way thou knowest. Thomas saith unto him, Lord we know not where you go nor how you go. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.”
And because Jesus said I am going away their hearts were made sorry and then in the 16th chapter and the seventh verse He said I’m telling you the truth about it” “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is necessary that I go away: For if I don’t go away the Comforter will not come unto you.”
What is the Comforter? John 14:26 “And when the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost is come he will teach you all things.” So we have the Comforter there. And that is the Holy Spirit. Jesus said if I don’t go away he won’t come. No, he won’t. That’s right. He wouldn’t come if Jesus begged him. Now if Jesus and the Holy Spirit were all the same would Jesus have to run out in the yard and close the door and then come back in again? You know better than that. You’re too intelligent to believe a thing like that. No, he doesn’t know that. You people are intelligent enough to know that. Jesus wouldn’t have had to run off somewhere and then come running back. I was the Son when I ran out the door but I’m the Holy Spirit now when I come back. I’LL be the Father after awhile. Isn’t that ridiculously absurd? Now that’s what they got the revelation in 1914. Claim the Lord gave it to them. No wonder nobody knew about it until then. 1914.
Then Little David came with that fantastic, unmitigated tale – God took him up into heaven and kept him five hours and told him a lot of stuff. You ought to had him down here tonight. He’s never had you to heaven. Looks like you’d get some fellow that’s been up there with God awhile. Did Little David see him? You said tonight no man has seen Him. David said he saw Him. Why Little David said he saw Him, that he went up there with Him.
Mary Ellen White said she saw him, that she stayed up there. He took her in the Holy of Holies and showed her a lot of stuff. She came back and told it. Little David came back and tried to tell it but what did poor old Hoekstra get for following after that? What happened to him? Where is he? You see, the transgressor the way of a transgressor is hard. You may fool some of the people some of the time but you can’t fool all the people all the time. Abraham Lincoln said that. It isn’t Bible. That’s Abraham Lincoln.
But you know when Jesus said if I don’t go away the Comforter will not come.
Now let’s go back over to Matt. 20 when Jesus said all authority, all power in heaven and earth has been given to me. You can’t have a gift without two persons, if it’s been given. Suppose some man was to turn in his tax returns and he marks on there I gave away $1,000. The tax investigator would come up and say to whom did you give that 1,000. Why, I didn’t give it to anybody. I gave it to myself. Where would he land? You know better than that. Did you ever hear of anybody getting into trouble with the tax assessors. Any of you fellows around here ever hear of anybody getting into trouble with a tax investigator? Did you? If you do you know what will happen and I know you’ve heard it. You know what will happen when you go to try to do things like that. Why they know better than that. But then when God comes along and says that he
his son they say he didn’t do it. The Son was God and He gave just himself. Why in John 3:16 it says, “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. ForGod sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved.”
Now I want again to call your attention to Phil. 2:5, 6 where Paul said, “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus. Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to equal with God. . .” Oh those scriptures, they’re just one after the other. Let me tell you, my friends, the truth is like a nickel; the more you rub it the brighter it shines. That’s the reason I like debates. You people have heard things tonight and last night you never would have heard if you hadn’t had a debate. You’ve seen it on the board over there. You don’t hear your preachers talking about there are three that bear record in heaven. Why he tried to reflect on that last night and said you know that’s doubted. Why I don’t know any such thing.
He though it was scripture, they did in 1914 .. of course, he wasn’t in the world in 1914 .. but there’s one of their preachers by the name of Mr. Welch over here at Pensacola, Florida, who can debate rings around this man and he was here then. He was here when they got the revelation. Got it from heaven. God told them now listen there’s just one person in the Godhead. But He let people go for almost 2000 years believing there were three, and then came to them and told them that there is just one.
Now you can see, my friends, there isn’t anything to that stuff that he’s trying to … And he says that he was made in the image. Why I’ve already noticed that. He was made in the image af God, not in the
of cherubims as he would have you think, but in the image of God. God is a person. The first chapter of Hebrews and the fourth verse calls Him a person, that Jesus was made in the likeness of his person. And then we have the pronoun, the personal pronoun referring to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is a pronoun. In Colossians 2:9 “In Him dwelleth all the fulness. . . .” and that word fulness means all the power, all the glory of the godhead. If there weren’t more than one that statement would never have been in the Bible. Thank you.
(The above material was a special debate edition published in The Restored Apostolic Church Evangel newspaper.)